Hi there,
I notice this piwik instance is used on Zanata : https://engstats.redhat.com/piwik/piwik.js
I do not understand the aim of this, if gather a few user statistics on public website is fine to me (we need to mesure the impact of widespread communication), I am not confortable by using it on contributor tools.
Redhat already have a lot of tracking of public activity of what we do (it's open and we use the same login everywhere), why would you like to go deeper in who we are ?
Is it an exception to be fixed or something you do on other contributors tools ?
Thanks for your help,
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 12:02:22PM -0000, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
Hi there,
I notice this piwik instance is used on Zanata : https://engstats.redhat.com/piwik/piwik.js
I do not understand the aim of this, if gather a few user statistics on public website is fine to me (we need to mesure the impact of widespread communication), I am not confortable by using it on contributor tools.
Redhat already have a lot of tracking of public activity of what we do (it's open and we use the same login everywhere), why would you like to go deeper in who we are ?
Is it an exception to be fixed or something you do on other contributors tools ?
These are interesting question, but if I recall correctly we (fedora) do not host nor maintain Zanata, so unfortunately, we cannot answer them.
Maybe you could ask the people who are maintaining it? If you do not have a contact email, we may be able to look for a point of contact for you to ask these questions.
Fedora infra has its own piwik instance on which some of our apps are, but I do not believe they track any user's activity, more provide some statistics on usage. Some people might be better placed than I am to comment on the questions piwik answers in our infra.
Hope this helps, Pierre
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 12:02:22 -0000 "Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr wrote:
Hi there,
I notice this piwik instance is used on Zanata : https://engstats.redhat.com/piwik/piwik.js
I do not understand the aim of this, if gather a few user statistics on public website is fine to me (we need to mesure the impact of widespread communication), I am not confortable by using it on contributor tools.
Redhat already have a lot of tracking of public activity of what we do (it's open and we use the same login everywhere), why would you like to go deeper in who we are ?
Is it an exception to be fixed or something you do on other contributors tools ?
Thanks for your help,
Well, we don't run fedora.zanata.org. The zanata folks do.
So, I guess I'd suggest sending your question to one of the zanata mailing lists: http://zanata.org/mailing-lists/ or filing an issue at: http://zanata.org/issues/
kevin
Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin. Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics.
Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:41:39 -0000 "Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr wrote:
Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin.
Well, not sure how else I can answer. We don't manage Zanata and don't know how or why they setup things the way they did.
Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics.
There are tools that the Fedora community uses that are not managed by Fedora Infrastructure. Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another, Freenoode yet another. These are all tools where we had decided we don't have the resources to run our own instances or feel that existing tools are fine.
We do not manage zanata at all. We don't have any control over it. I cannot tell you why something was setup the way it was other than asking the owner(s), which you can also do.
Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
This policy applies to Fedora Project resources. Bugzilla, Zanata and Freenode have their own privacy policies.
kevin
Hi All,
The Zanata development team manages the Fedora Zanata instance. Alex Eng is part of this effort. We use piwik to track the general usage that Zanata is getting. We use the Red Hat instance because in that way we can see and combine the data from all the Zanata instances we manage. We use it to track things like which browsers are being used to access it, what are the pages that are most visited, etc.
This helps us a lot to determine which features need greater priority, or whether we should test that certain pages work perfectly in mobile browsers, for example. As far as I have seen (or am interested) the data piwik gathers does not include user identifying information, and it has never left the Zanata development team for that matter.
Let me or Alex know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Carlos A. Munoz Associate Manager, Software Engineering Content Services and Globalization Red Hat
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:41:39 -0000 "Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr wrote:
Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin.
Well, not sure how else I can answer. We don't manage Zanata and don't know how or why they setup things the way they did.
Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics.
There are tools that the Fedora community uses that are not managed by Fedora Infrastructure. Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another, Freenoode yet another. These are all tools where we had decided we don't have the resources to run our own instances or feel that existing tools are fine.
We do not manage zanata at all. We don't have any control over it. I cannot tell you why something was setup the way it was other than asking the owner(s), which you can also do.
Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
This policy applies to Fedora Project resources. Bugzilla, Zanata and Freenode have their own privacy policies.
kevin
infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave@lists. fedoraproject.org
Jean-Baptise,
Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there
is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org is part of the Fedora project and as such
I remember there was a huge discussion among translator's team in Fedora for few months and its a decision from Fedora community, not RedHat.
Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another,
Freenoode yet another.
I don't think you're bound to use these tools in Fedora. But it is the fact that the tools is mature andis widely used by community. This is the same discussion with Fedora Hub why they support IRC rather than other chat platform, because its being used by community.
With Piwik, Carlos's reply explained it.
You can ask the same question on any application which community uses. Generally, I think its the same for all of them, and I think its fine as long as it is for benefit of improving the application.
Feel free to let me know if you have anymore question.
---------------------------------------------
Alex Eng Senior Software Engineer Globalisation Tools Engineering DID: +61 3514 8262 callto:+61+3514+8262 Mobile: +614 2335 3457 callto:+614+2335+3457
Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 callto:+61+7+3514+8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 callto:+61+7+3514+8199 Website: www.redhat.com
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:44 AM, Carlos Munoz camunoz@redhat.com wrote:
Hi All,
The Zanata development team manages the Fedora Zanata instance. Alex Eng is part of this effort. We use piwik to track the general usage that Zanata is getting. We use the Red Hat instance because in that way we can see and combine the data from all the Zanata instances we manage. We use it to track things like which browsers are being used to access it, what are the pages that are most visited, etc.
This helps us a lot to determine which features need greater priority, or whether we should test that certain pages work perfectly in mobile browsers, for example. As far as I have seen (or am interested) the data piwik gathers does not include user identifying information, and it has never left the Zanata development team for that matter.
Let me or Alex know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Carlos A. Munoz Associate Manager, Software Engineering Content Services and Globalization Red Hat
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 19:41:39 -0000 "Jean-Baptiste Holcroft" jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr wrote:
Oh, please do not answer like this Kevin.
Well, not sure how else I can answer. We don't manage Zanata and don't know how or why they setup things the way they did.
Red Hat decided to use Zanata, so the Fedora community use it, there is no possibility for us to use any other tool, so fedora.zanata.org is part of the Fedora project and as such, I'm asking the official RedHat Infrastructure team about usage of contributor statistics.
There are tools that the Fedora community uses that are not managed by Fedora Infrastructure. Bugzilla is one example, Zanata is another, Freenoode yet another. These are all tools where we had decided we don't have the resources to run our own instances or feel that existing tools are fine.
We do not manage zanata at all. We don't have any control over it. I cannot tell you why something was setup the way it was other than asking the owner(s), which you can also do.
Why in the same time, we do not save IRC history but we do store time spent on each page, clicked item, and any other thing that Piwiki can track ? It is not my understanding of the PrivacyPolicy : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:PrivacyPolicy
This policy applies to Fedora Project resources. Bugzilla, Zanata and Freenode have their own privacy policies.
kevin
infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave@lists.fed oraproject.org
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Well, thank you for your answer, can you create your Policy page and remove it from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora Policy ?
Jean-Baptise,
I'm not sure what you mean by "create policy page"? Do we have policy page that I'm not aware of?
and remove it from fedora.zanata.org? Remove which page from Zanata?
---------------------------------------------
Alex Eng Senior Software Engineer Globalisation Tools Engineering DID: +61 3514 8262 callto:+61+3514+8262 Mobile: +614 2335 3457 callto:+614+2335+3457
Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd Level 1, 193 North Quay Brisbane 4000 Office: +61 7 3514 8100 callto:+61+7+3514+8100 Fax: +61 7 3514 8199 callto:+61+7+3514+8199 Website: www.redhat.com
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft < jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr> wrote:
Well, thank you for your answer, can you create your Policy page and remove it from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora Policy ? _______________________________________________ infrastructure mailing list -- infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to infrastructure-leave@lists. fedoraproject.org
Le 2016-10-11 08:04, Alex Eng a écrit :
Jean-Baptise,
I'm not sure what you mean by "create policy page"? Do we have policy page that I'm not aware of?
and remove it from fedora.zanata.org [2]? Remove which page from Zanata?
English native doing that to evade the subject...
Let's rewrite it : Well, thank you for your answer: * can you create a dedicated Zanata Policy page ? * can you remove Piwiki script from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora Policy ?
To answer your question, I'm surprised you do not know you have a terms page using RedHat policy page: http://zanata.org/terms Let me quote the content:
- Privacy Statement
Red Hat agrees to use your personal information in accordance with the Privacy Policy published at http://www.redhat.com/legal/privacy_statement.html (the "Red Hat Privacy Policy") and the Terms. The Red Hat Privacy Policy is hereby incorporated by reference into these Terms. In the event of any conflict between these Terms and the Red Hat Privacy Policy, the Red Hat Privacy Policy shall control.
As far as I understand Red Hat Privacy Policy, it doesn't respect it either. It is done for a website browsing usage and not for collaborative tool.
I'm sad to notice mailing list guidelines are not respected either : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Please respect https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy
Values are important, it's what make us work together, gathering every information we can about user is not something we should encourage.
Please notice it hurt to see you set the statistics you want as a developpement team, while you do not set the statistics we need to help Language Coordination in Zanata.
Hi Jean-Baptiste, please see my comments inline.
Regards,
Carlos.
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft < jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr> wrote:
Le 2016-10-11 08:04, Alex Eng a écrit :
Jean-Baptise,
I'm not sure what you mean by "create policy page"? Do we have policy page that I'm not aware of?
and remove it from fedora.zanata.org [2]? Remove which page from Zanata?
English native doing that to evade the subject...
Not sure what is being implied here, but Alex is genuinely not aware of what you meant here, and neither was I until you clarified it was the Zanata terms of use page, so thank you for said clarification.
Let's rewrite it : Well, thank you for your answer:
- can you create a dedicated Zanata Policy page ?
We already did this, and it's the one you see at the moment. You however pointed out it doesn't align with Fedora policy. It can be changed by any admin in the system when a new url is provided. We have admin rights in the system, but we'd prefer if these changes were done by a Fedora l10n admin (e.g. Noriko) as this is their responsibility and they have stated they prefer all changes to go through them. I also imagine there needs to be some discussion about any such changes with the community as a whole.
- can you remove Piwiki script from Fedora.Zanata.org to respect Fedora
Policy ?
Same thing here. It can be done, but please have one of the l10n admins take care of the change. In this particular case I would really urge the community to consider keeping the setting as it provides the development team valuable information about how Zanata is being used. But alas if this goes against policy then we will just have to make due.
To answer your question, I'm surprised you do not know you have a terms page using RedHat policy page: http://zanata.org/terms Let me quote the content:
- Privacy Statement
Red Hat agrees to use your personal information in accordance with the Privacy Policy published at http://www.redhat.com/legal/pr ivacy_statement.html (the "Red Hat Privacy Policy") and the Terms. The Red Hat Privacy Policy is hereby incorporated by reference into these Terms. In the event of any conflict between these Terms and the Red Hat Privacy Policy, the Red Hat Privacy Policy shall control.
As far as I understand Red Hat Privacy Policy, it doesn't respect it either. It is done for a website browsing usage and not for collaborative tool.
I'm sad to notice mailing list guidelines are not respected either : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Please respect https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy
I'm curious as to which part of the mailing list guidelines you feel is not being respected by Zanata. Would you care to elaborate?
Values are important, it's what make us work together, gathering every information we can about user is not something we should encourage.
Agreed on values. We are happy to help wherever we can, but please understand Zanata is in no way attempting to 'gather every information' about its users. Whatever information it tracks is akin to system logs, to be used to analyze and improve the platform. But like I said before, the community can elect to opt out of this, and the admins have the capability to do it.
Please notice it hurt to see you set the statistics you want as a developpement team, while you do not set the statistics we need to help Language Coordination in Zanata.
Not sure I understand your point here. Do you wish to see some of the piwik statistics which could help with language coordination? If so, we would be happy to share those with the community. Or, are you talking about new features in Zanata for the same purpose?
Furthermore, should we move this thread to the l10n mailing list and out of the Infra one?
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On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:48:20AM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
English native doing that to evade the subject...
Hi Jean-Baptiste,
Can you please assume good faith? In this thread in more than one email your affirmations seems to imply that there is someone trying to "cover up" (my definition) and "evade" (you definition) the subject. This is not very polite, imho.
Best, Fale
Le 11/10/2016 à 18:12, Fabio Alessandro Locati a écrit :
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:48:20AM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
English native doing that to evade the subject...
Hi Jean-Baptiste,
Can you please assume good faith? In this thread in more than one email your affirmations seems to imply that there is someone trying to "cover up" (my definition) and "evade" (you definition) the subject. This is not very polite, imho.
Best, Fale
ok Fale, thank for pointing it out. I'll do better in the future. Sorry about that Alex, I assume this is related to the frustration created by Zanata imperfections over timewhich is not related to the subject.
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 12:46 AM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft < jean-baptiste@holcroft.fr> wrote:
Le 11/10/2016 à 18:12, Fabio Alessandro Locati a écrit :
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 10:48:20AM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft wrote:
English native doing that to evade the subject...
Hi Jean-Baptiste,
Can you please assume good faith? In this thread in more than one email your affirmations seems to imply that there is someone trying to "cover up" (my definition) and "evade" (you definition) the subject. This is not very polite, imho.
Best, Fale
ok Fale, thank for pointing it out. I'll do better in the future. Sorry about that Alex, I assume this is related to the frustration created by Zanata imperfections over timewhich is not related to the subject.
If you need any enhancements to Zanata or found any bug in it or its workflow then please report it to http://zanata.org/issues/ or better discuss on trans list. The Zanata developers are really helpful and quick in fixing issues.
Regards, Parag.
infrastructure@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Carlos Munoz -
Fabio Alessandro Locati -
Jean-Baptiste -
Kevin Fenzi -
Parag Nemade -
Pierre-Yves Chibon