On 22 August 2013 14:45, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:

...

What happened to naming 20 in honor of Seth?

Dan

I believe that it was decided that like had been done in the past, this release would be dedicated to Seth Vidal, but not named after him as Seth hated released names with a white hot passion of 10,000 supernovas. [Of course he would probably still laugh if the release was named Vidalia Onion]

Il 22/08/2013 22:53, Dan Mashal ha scritto:

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:

...

I believe that it was decided that like had been done in the past, this release would be dedicated to Seth Vidal, but not named after him as Seth hated released names with a white hot passion of 10,000 supernovas. [Of course he would probably still laugh if the release was named Vidalia Onion]

Yes I remember his hatred of release names being thrown around, and it was suggested that we just call it "20", and that might please the gods.

Dan

+1 regards gil

On Aug 22, 2013, at 2:53 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:

...

I believe that it was decided that like had been done in the past, this release would be dedicated to Seth Vidal, but not named after him as Seth hated released names with a white hot passion of 10,000 supernovas. [Of course he would probably still laugh if the release was named Vidalia Onion]

Yes I remember his hatred of release names being thrown around, and it was suggested that we just call it "20", and that might please the gods.

*smack own forehead* I like that better than the other options also. For me, one extra point for Vidalia onion over "20".

Heck I like "Crazy Train" based on a recent Matthew Miller assertion.

Assuming there can be no late add ins though, the overwhelmingly obvious correct answer is Heisenbug. I attract more Heisenbugs than anyone I know. It's funny. It's true, they totally exist. And (sorry!) all the other options are snoozers. Now, had it been "Santa's reindeer" that might have made it a *little* less obvious, what the correct answer is.

Chris Murphy

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:

...

*smack own forehead* I like that better than the other options also. For me, one extra point for Vidalia onion over "20".

Heck I like "Crazy Train" based on a recent Matthew Miller assertion.

Assuming there can be no late add ins though, the overwhelmingly obvious correct answer is Heisenbug. I attract more Heisenbugs than anyone I know. It's funny. It's true, they totally exist. And (sorry!) all the other options are snoozers. Now, had it been "Santa's reindeer" that might have made it a *little* less obvious, what the correct answer is.

How about no release name, just this one time. In his honor? I love release names, and while I didn't know Seth very well personally, probably the main reason I use Fedora/RHEL/CentOS is because of yum. He deserves the honor in my opinion. The choices up there are lame.

The choices are what the community came up with. At this point, that is what we have to chose from.

If i I had to choose I guess I'd vote for Santa Claus but this is ridiculous.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but there are essentially two camps right now. Those that don't care about release names one bit (like me), and those that do. If those that do care want better names, they'll need to work harder at creating meaningful suggestions.

The Board has an open ticket on the naming process. We're working through it now, but "no release names" isn't an immediate option because the last time we proposed that the community vote showed names were still desired. Hopefully we'll resolve the ticket shortly and explain how naming needs to work in the future.

With all due respect can someone please explain to me how this release is "dedicated" to Mr. Vidal?

It will be dedicated in the release announcement. Perhaps someone might add something to the download page on the website as well.

josh

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:

...

It will be dedicated in the release announcement. Perhaps someone might add something to the download page on the website as well.

Hi Josh,

Thanks for replying.

I personally LOVE release names. However, I feel that we should forego it this one release.

What is the point of the board of the community decides everything?

To ensure that the community gets to decided anything for starters. That's a much broader topic though, and I'll stick to the release name stuff in my reply.

We all know that there needs to be a tough decision made by the board, and it's not release names vs no release names. For me it's about doing what Seth would have wanted, whether he was close to us or not, whether he he touched us or knew us or cared about personally.

Please seriously consider the following and have a BOARD vote on it:

We consider it. It was decided against. The names in the vote are the possibilities going forward. I personally would love to have no release names (ever), but we're beyond that point now.

I do not foresee further emails changing that, so while feedback is welcome for future releases I don't want people to get the expectation that it will change for F20.

josh

On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but there are essentially two camps right now. Those that don't care about release names one bit (like me), and those that do. If those that do care want better names, they'll need to work harder at creating meaningful suggestions.

OK I'm third camp: peanut gallery. I don't really care about release names, I'm happier to see them go away, but insofar as we have them, I'm playing along by a.) voting, b.) complaining. [1]

The Board has an open ticket on the naming process. We're working through it now, but "no release names" isn't an immediate option because the last time we proposed that the community vote showed names were still desired. Hopefully we'll resolve the ticket shortly and explain how naming needs to work in the future.

Understood. Thanks.

Chris Murphy

[1] I wouldn't dare be helpful and come up with better names for something I'd rather see go away. But hey, I'll whine about names that make me yawn to death as motivation for those who really do care. I mean, come on Chateaubriand and Cherry Ice Cream? And the name that makes me think of a cross between feral cats and youtube cat videos? Give me a wet stinky fur ball to choke on. (I like indoor cats, or cats in potentially poisonous gas boxes. Every outdoor cat should be in one of those two locations.)

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Paul Wouters pwouters@redhat.com wrote:

On Thu, 22 Aug 2013, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:

...

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but there are essentially two camps right now. Those that don't care about release names one bit (like me), and those that do. If those that do care want better names, they'll need to work harder at creating meaningful suggestions.

OK I'm third camp: peanut gallery. I don't really care about release names, I'm happier to see them go away, but insofar as we have them, I'm playing along by a.) voting, b.) complaining. [1]

It would be good if the next vote would allow "none" as an option. I could not vote 'none' on the last election. And I think it is important to track the percentage of people who want to kill the meaningless names.

That's a good suggestion for future votes.

At the moment, the best you can do is cast 0 votes for all choices. That won't really change the outcome, but at least votes will be recorded.

josh

On 08/23/2013 04:27 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:

Can we request an exception from the board to add "" (empty string) as an option for _just_ the F20 naming poll?

You'd have to reset voting, too. I've already voted, but I'd re-vote to vote for no name.

On 23/08/13 17:49 -0400, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:

Or how about "None". It even fits with the lineage -- just like the Schrodinger's cat, it's neither False nor True. It's None.

That would be a worthy tribute to the pythonista and the release-name hater.

+1

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Mathieu Bridon bochecha@fedoraproject.org wrote:

On Friday, August 23, 2013 08:34 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:

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On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Paul Wouters pwouters@redhat.com wrote:

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On Thu, 22 Aug 2013, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote:

...

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but there are essentially two camps right now. Those that don't care about release names one bit (like me), and those that do. If those that do care want better names, they'll need to work harder at creating meaningful suggestions.

OK I'm third camp: peanut gallery. I don't really care about release names, I'm happier to see them go away, but insofar as we have them, I'm playing along by a.) voting, b.) complaining. [1]

It would be good if the next vote would allow "none" as an option. I could not vote 'none' on the last election. And I think it is important to track the percentage of people who want to kill the meaningless names.

That's a good suggestion for future votes.

At the moment, the best you can do is cast 0 votes for all choices. That won't really change the outcome, but at least votes will be recorded.

That's in fact what I did.

That begs the question: what if the elected word has received a very low score compared to the maximum possible?

That would mean that it received a very small support from our community, and in fact that the majority was either voting for no name or for none of the proposed names.

If that happened, would we decide that Fedora would not be named, because no proposal managed to raise enough support?

That's nonsense. A non vote may have different reasons you cannot simply put them into one category. The most common reason for non voting is lack of carrying. So the best way to deal with non votes is to ignore them (like pretty much any reasonable election process does).

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Mathieu Bridon bochecha@fedoraproject.org wrote:

On Saturday, August 24, 2013 11:38 PM, drago01 wrote:

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On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Mathieu Bridon bochecha@fedoraproject.org wrote:

...

On Friday, August 23, 2013 08:34 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:

...

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Paul Wouters pwouters@redhat.com wrote:

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On Thu, 22 Aug 2013, Chris Murphy wrote:

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On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.org wrote: > > > > > I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but there are essentially two camps > right now. Those that don't care about release names one bit (like > me), and those that do. If those that do care want better names, > they'll need to work harder at creating meaningful suggestions.

OK I'm third camp: peanut gallery. I don't really care about release names, I'm happier to see them go away, but insofar as we have them, I'm playing along by a.) voting, b.) complaining. [1]

It would be good if the next vote would allow "none" as an option. I could not vote 'none' on the last election. And I think it is important to track the percentage of people who want to kill the meaningless names.

That's a good suggestion for future votes.

At the moment, the best you can do is cast 0 votes for all choices. That won't really change the outcome, but at least votes will be recorded.

That's in fact what I did.

That begs the question: what if the elected word has received a very low score compared to the maximum possible?

That would mean that it received a very small support from our community, and in fact that the majority was either voting for no name or for none of the proposed names.

If that happened, would we decide that Fedora would not be named, because no proposal managed to raise enough support?

That's nonsense. A non vote may have different reasons you cannot simply put them into one category. The most common reason for non voting is lack of carrying. So the best way to deal with non votes is to ignore them (like pretty much any reasonable election process does).

I didn't say non-vote from people who don't care, I said people who do care and actively vote for none of the proposals. That's very different.

OK, if there is an active none option and that option wins sure.

And no matter the reason why that would happen, the fact is that if the maximum possible for a name is 8000 (8 names, 1000 voters) and the best name is elected with e.g 100 points, then that means that even the most voted for failed to receive the support of the voters, and that as a result it doesn't represent them.

If that happened, would we still go with a name that doesn't represent even the people who made the effort of voting?

The election process says "the one with the highest source win" which makes sense. If we have a "none" option that can be selected and also automatically wins when the source of the wining name is "to low" then this would be a skewed process.

So picking the winning name would be the better choice yes.

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Mathieu Bridon bochecha@fedoraproject.org wrote:

That begs the question: what if the elected word has received a very low score compared to the maximum possible?

Doesn't matter.

That would mean that it received a very small support from our community, and in fact that the majority was either voting for no name or for none of the proposed names.

It would not mean that. You aren't voting for and against the choices, you are expressing your relative preference as best you can. What it would mean is that the voters preferred the one that got the most support.

If that happened, would we decide that Fedora would not be named, because no proposal managed to raise enough support?

If "None" was an option, which I think is a terrible idea, the only thing you could conclude from it winning is the we preferred to not have a release name in this election given the names on the ballot. It would mean absolutely nothing about whether we as a community prefer to not have release names in general. I think we just recently tested that theory with a vote of questionable meaning and it was concluded that we did prefer to keep them.

John

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:

On 24 August 2013 10:55, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:

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If "None" was an option, which I think is a terrible idea, the only thing you could conclude from it winning is the we preferred to not have a release name in this election given the names on the ballot. It would mean absolutely nothing about whether we as a community prefer to not have release names in general. I think we just recently tested that theory with a vote of questionable meaning and it was concluded that we did prefer to keep them.

Uhm no. You can't test a question with a test of questionable meaning. The test wasn't between 2 choices.. it was a test of 3 which basically allowed you to put the middle choice to either side of the equation and say that one side or the other has an absolute majority. Bringing up that vote as validation is like bringing up a cricket game to say which country is the better one... it is a false dichotomy which just keeps people flustered and doesn't "prove" anything.

Well, I did not offer it as proof. I stated the fact that those who designed that election concluded from its results what they concluded.

The point I really wanted to convey there is that None winning the F21 release name election would not prove much of anything in general either.

I'm just going to accept the Board's previous decision for now and not re-open it for new consideration every 6 months.

In the end, I understand the reason the board doesn't want to spend time on this molehill community breaker. Just state it as that and not that some vote proved people selected one way or another. Say instead:

If you don't want to deal with names, just don't get in the emails or vote.. because it isn't worth getting worked up over.

No point saying that because it won't happen. This was just an announcement of the vote and look where it has gone. The only way to stop people from getting worked up over this silly business is to stop doing it and that is about the only thing I want to discuss at this point. There isn't any point tweaking the process as those dead set against it are not going to stop complaining about it at every opportunity.

John

On 24 August 2013 12:35, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:

...

If you don't want to deal with names, just don't get in the emails or

vote..

...

because it isn't worth getting worked up over.

No point saying that because it won't happen. This was just an announcement of the vote and look where it has gone. The only way to stop people from getting worked up over this silly business is to stop doing it and that is about the only thing I want to discuss at this point. There isn't any point tweaking the process as those dead set against it are not going to stop complaining about it at every opportunity.

Well I am saying it.

Hi, everyone who is bringing up removing the names (especially myself).

Let It Go. Move along, Go find something positive to do and go do that. Let the people who have fun doing this, do it and get out of their way.

There. Done my bit. Going for a bike ride.

You forgot the third camp, who want their release names without punctuation so it doesn't break a decade of configuration scripting. Releases need punctuation and non-7-bit ASCII in their names like goldfish need martinis.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Josh Boyer jwboyer@fedoraproject.orgwrote:

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:

...

On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com

wrote:

...

...

*smack own forehead* I like that better than the other options also.

For me, one extra point for Vidalia onion over "20".

...

...

Heck I like "Crazy Train" based on a recent Matthew Miller assertion.

Assuming there can be no late add ins though, the overwhelmingly

obvious correct answer is Heisenbug. I attract more Heisenbugs than anyone I know. It's funny. It's true, they totally exist. And (sorry!) all the other options are snoozers. Now, had it been "Santa's reindeer" that might have made it a *little* less obvious, what the correct answer is.

...

How about no release name, just this one time. In his honor? I love release names, and while I didn't know Seth very well personally, probably the main reason I use Fedora/RHEL/CentOS is because of yum. He deserves the honor in my opinion. The choices up there are lame.

The choices are what the community came up with. At this point, that is what we have to chose from.

...

If i I had to choose I guess I'd vote for Santa Claus but this is

ridiculous.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but there are essentially two camps right now. Those that don't care about release names one bit (like me), and those that do. If those that do care want better names, they'll need to work harder at creating meaningful suggestions.

The Board has an open ticket on the naming process. We're working through it now, but "no release names" isn't an immediate option because the last time we proposed that the community vote showed names were still desired. Hopefully we'll resolve the ticket shortly and explain how naming needs to work in the future.

...

With all due respect can someone please explain to me how this release is "dedicated" to Mr. Vidal?

It will be dedicated in the release announcement. Perhaps someone might add something to the download page on the website as well.

josh

devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:55:44PM +0000, Andre Robatino wrote:

Josh Boyer <jwboyer <at> fedoraproject.org> writes:

...

The Board has an open ticket on the naming process. We're working through it now, but "no release names" isn't an immediate option because the last time we proposed that the community vote showed names were still desired. Hopefully we'll resolve the ticket shortly and explain how naming needs to work in the future.

What is the ticket URL? I don't see it under active Fesco tickets.

It's a board ticket. And unfortunately as a project we've never managed to resolve the board's need for private tickets sometimes and the need for public tickets in most cases.

BTW, I was wondering if it's possible to simply remove any reference to the release name from the Fedora OS, so it's not a burden on developers (like "Schrödinger’s Cat" was). I noticed that there is a closed ticket https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1103 (Release names should not include shell metacharacters), which appears to just assume that the release name has to be included in the OS itself (otherwise, there would be no need for the ticket). Is that actually true?

There are various things that want to get at the release name. I suspect that if we put it into a different file in the OS, those things would just move around to try to find it.

We could just put the release number into those files and keep the release name in our heads, I suppose. There wouldn't be a technical downside to that but I don't know whether people would like that socially or not.

-Toshio

On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:

How about no release name, just this one time. In his honor?

I'd back no release name for 20 with 8 points and 0 for everything else, if it's an option, and in particular if the marketing includes to the effect of: "Fedora 20 is nameless in honor of Seth Vidal who hated release names with the white hot passion of 10,000 supernovas."

Chris Murphy

Hi,

On Thu, 22 Aug 2013 18:23:39 -0600 Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:

<snip>

I'd back no release name for 20 with 8 points and 0 for everything else, if it's an option, and in particular if the marketing includes to the effect of: "Fedora 20 is nameless in honor of Seth Vidal who hated release names with the white hot passion of 10,000 supernovas."

+1000

Cheers, Tomas

On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Michael Schwendt mschwendt@gmail.com wrote:

I don't think it's been hatred (or passionate fighting, or else he would have tried to reach a decision at the FPB level), but indeed, he has been one of those who think the release name process is a waste of time and of no use.

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-March/011419.h...

That was a very practical solution to what appeared to be another layer of hassle around release names. In reality so far at least that hassle hasn't materialized.

How many people are involved in suggesting release names, reviewing them, checking them (Red Hat Legal)? How many people enjoy doing all that? There aren't many voters.

Part of the deal with participating in a community is that sometimes you do things you would not choose to do to enable others to do what they do choose to do.

Red Hat legal can kill release names at any time by simply saying they no longer are willing to vet the names. The Fedora Board can do the same. Neither has so why do we have to keep going over this?

The Board spends maybe 3-4 hours on this twice a year. If that is too much to enable part of the community to enjoy participating in the tradition of release naming then propose the Board simply stop doing it.

It has come up many years ago already, too, that hardly anybody refers to a Fedora distribution release using its codename instead of the release numbers and/or shortnames: Fedora 19, F19, F-19, f19. It doesn't get more accurate. No point releases as with Red Hat Linux.

And there really isn't anything accomplished by bringing up the same old arguments again now except to spoil the fun those who enjoy this might have. At least I can't see any reason.

John

On Aug 22, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:

[Of course he would probably still laugh if the release was named Vidalia Onion]

HEY! Why isn't Vidalia Onion one of the name options? That's way better than any of the other options.

Chris Murphy

Il 23/08/2013 01:08, David ha scritto:

On 8/22/2013 7:03 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

On Aug 22, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Stephen John Smoogen smooge@gmail.com wrote:

...

[Of course he would probably still laugh if the release was named Vidalia Onion]

HEY! Why isn't Vidalia Onion one of the name options? That's way better than any of the other options.

Chris Murphy

Me too!! I like Vidalia Onions!

-1 regards gil