Re: DUG Review
by Rahul Sundaram
Timothy Murphy wrote:
> On Tue 20 Mar 2007, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
>> Want a more spicy "review"?
>>
>> http://beranger.org/index.php?article=2452
>
> I complete agree with the complaint in this review
> that the DUG is excessively Gnome-centric.
>
> I asked some time ago about a problem I had
> following some instructions in the DUG,
> and was told that the assumption was that
> the reader was running Gnome rather than KDE.
>
> It seems to me pretty silly to start by discarding
> half (or more) of one's audience.
Complaining is only half the part though. The guide is GNOME centric
because the volunteers who wrote it preferred to focus on the default
environment and applications. If you want to you are welcome to
contribute to a KDE specific equivalent.
Rahul
17 years, 1 month
Network Configuration
by Nicolas A. Corrarello
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hello Ppl.
I was thinking to add to the Desktop user Guide a per provider
"Connecting to Internet Chapter"
It has to be localized, with each country brand to help starting users.
I was thinking to write first a generic guide of:
Using PPPOE
Using DHCP
Using a Fixed IP Address
Using Wireless
That someone from each country could localise, for example in Argentina:
Using PPPOE (For ADSL, like Speedy(TM), Arnet(TM))
Using DHCP (For CableModem(TM), like Fibertel(TM), or Ciudad Internet
Flash(TM))
Using a Fixed IP Adress (For you LAN, or major providers, like
IPlan(TM), or Telmex(TM)
Using Wireless
Comments?
NC
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFF/+ue4UWy+d/Ik+4RAmXXAJ0W/8Osjpv6YIovGtITBZLTRDnpbQCeJzCU
0NPfkCa5ZT6KwxNiIr4dwac=
=8Jux
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
17 years, 1 month
Document in need for an editor
by Nicolas A. Corrarello
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Hello Everyone:
Some of us have been working on the document
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/NetworkInstall and I think it
is in need for an editor because its becoming really mature.
Y.S.
Nicolas Corrarello
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFF/v9S4UWy+d/Ik+4RAgaBAKCU05K3a3xJVHpmQnBzFXV7oaZOCQCcD0//
M4iRfsYjWkUR2PCFZrOxJpk=
=1xRV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
17 years, 1 month
Fedora Bounty for translations
by Dimitris Glezos
Hey all.
I just written a proposal for a Google Summer of Code for "an
upstream-compatible L10N platform for Fedora".
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties#L10NPlatform
Comments? Suggestions?
Anyone experienced in Python thinking of taking it? GSoC pays around $4000
(€3000) for each successfully completed project plus $500 that go to the Fedora
Project.
-d
--
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/
"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--
17 years, 1 month
moving to docs.fedoraproject.org
by Karsten Wade
We are in the process of moving our documentation publishing to
http://docs.fedoraproject.org.
To start, it is going to mirror what was formerly at
fedora.redhat.com/docs.
For the next few days/until the end of the coming week, publishing (such
as new translations like the Installation Guide in Polish) is going to
be ... sporadic. In a few days we'll ask for everyone to help us find
Web site bugs and make things flow better.
thx - Karsten
--
Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project
Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
17 years, 1 month
Re: fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
by Magnus Glantz
Karsten,
Ooops, the username is 'Magnus Glantz', it was my alias that was
'magnusg' (which has now aswell been changed to 'Magnus Glantz').
:-)
BG,
//M
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:29:46 -0700
> From: Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: fedora-docs-list Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15
> To: fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com
> Message-ID: <1173842986.4220.47.camel(a)erato.phig.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 23:23 +0100, Magnus Glantz wrote:
> > Karsten,
>
> > My Wiki username is: magnusg
>
> Magnus,
>
> A Wiki username is normally in the form of FirstnameLastname, such as
> MagnusGlantz. This is a requirement/preference of the Wiki engine, and
> we don't have any other implementation working. If you'll create a user
> with the form FirstnameLastname, many of us can add you right away.
>
> - Karsten
> --
> Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project
> Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
> quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41
> ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>
17 years, 1 month
IRC log FDSCo 18-Mar-2007 (summary to follow separately)
by Karsten Wade
SSIA
09:01 < quaid> <meeting>
09:01 < quaid> Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/MeetingAgenda
09:01 < quaid> :)
09:02 < stickster> Good $TIMEOFDAY, everyone
09:02 < stickster> First up: GSoC
09:02 < quaid> lots of new energy there this week :)
09:03 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode
09:03 < quaid> yep
09:03 < glezos> Quoting from 2 hours ago:
09:03 < glezos> KillerX I'm interested in applying for the docbook to
PDF converter project :)
09:03 * quaid saw that confab
09:03 < stickster> Yup, may have a sucker^Wtaker
09:03 < glezos> KillerX So I'll whip up a proposal and get back to you
then
09:03 < quaid> well, yeah, rather than back to us, its really, back to
the proposal process via code.google.com
09:04 < glezos> quaid, how about crafting a proposal for L10N WUI?
09:04 < glezos> mmcgrath also thought it would be a good idea
09:04 < quaid> ok, but same question I have about timing.
09:04 < quaid> August seems pretty late
09:04 * quaid looks at Releases/8/Schedule
09:04 < stickster> Here's KillerX's web site:
http://anant.wordpress.com/
09:05 < quaid> see, the problem is ...
09:05 < quaid> if you go 6 mon. forward from current string freeze
(which is tomorrow)
09:05 < quaid> that makes string freeze Sep.
09:05 < quaid> that is awfully close, isn't it?
09:06 < glezos> quaid, well, we can start with a WUI for statistics
(fairly easy) and stage 2 could be the remotely-hosted-PO-thing
09:06 < stickster> quaid: We could raise that with RelEng and craft a
time buffer into the next cycle
09:06 < stickster> Slips happen, and all
09:06 < couf> time buffer++
09:07 < glezos> Do we have any other stuff we'd like to craft as GSoC
proposals?
09:07 * stickster notes that string freeze will likely be Tuesday
instead
09:07 < couf> so we've got 3 bounties which have something to do with
docs
09:08 < glezos> For example, say, a Web frontend for DocBook+CVS in
Python?
09:08 < glezos> Ie. port of http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ to
Python
09:08 < glezos> just throwing ideas here
09:08 * quaid doesn't want to port that one, but knows what you mean
09:08 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties is the place
09:08 < quaid> yes, it is the place
09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that hiding that in Plone code
would be ideal
09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that having Plone folks would be
ideal++
09:09 < glezos> stickster, well, port to Python/Plone then
09:09 < couf> aye Plone++
09:09 < stickster> heh
09:10 * stickster still thinks we need some expert opinion on using
ReST/docutils for easy writing and better portability to DocBook
09:10 < glezos> There are 800 positions for students.. I guess crafting
proposals that will not certainly be used by us doesn't hurt that much
09:11 < stickster> Wow, that's a load of positions
09:12 < stickster> OK, so glezos, you want to draft a proposal then? Is
there any time left for the students to see it and apply by deadline?
09:12 < stickster> < 1 week?
09:12 < quaid> six days
09:12 < quaid> I need to do the same for the Plone install
09:12 < quaid> does that count as a student project?
09:12 < glezos> dunno.. I could write one I guess
09:12 < stickster> Hmm
09:12 < quaid> i.e., there isn't much code in a Plone install
09:13 < stickster> right
09:13 < stickster> Plone module for interaction with SCM/DocBook
though...
09:13 < stickster> Whether using ReST go-between or not...
09:13 < quaid> mspevack_out threw up a request for Plone help
internally, and the best so far is a team that just wrangled an install,
but they seem to be offering "answers to questions" v. actual
task-doing.
09:14 < stickster> understood
09:14 < glezos> quaid, maybe dubbing it "Make Plone a publishing
platform" and include stuff like the one stickster just mentioned
09:14 < quaid> ah, plone module, ok
09:14 < stickster> If you asked me what the scope of that work is, I
couldn't begin to tell you.
09:15 < stickster> I want to get myself to some Plone training but don't
see it happening any time soon.
09:15 < EvilBob> Morning All
09:15 < EvilBob> Sorry I over slept
09:16 < couf> we should get a Plone.org guy doing a GSoC for us :)
09:16 < stickster> Hi Bob
09:16 < EvilBob> GSoC, damaestro is interested in doing one
09:16 < couf> alas, the deadline is very very soon
09:16 < stickster> OK, before we get too off-track, maybe we should set
the action items for this and move on
09:16 < EvilBob> A plone item would be right up his alley
09:17 < quaid> ok
09:17 < quaid> that might do it
09:17 < quaid> I'll write up the plone thing
09:17 < stickster> suggestion: Notify Anant to let him know where to
send proposal
09:17 < quaid> glezos if you can post up a first pass at the l10n wui
09:18 < glezos> quaid, I think you have a clearer idea for it.. :)
09:18 < quaid> how did KillerX find us here and not find the Google
page?
09:18 < glezos> I can expand on it
09:18 < quaid> glezos: oh :)
09:18 < quaid> ok
09:18 < stickster> no idea :-D
09:18 < quaid> I'll put up first passes at both, then
09:18 < glezos> quaid, thanks.
09:18 < couf> ok, who's mentoring or wants to help mentoring?
09:19 < glezos> I can mentor for L10N WUI
09:19 < quaid> looks like anant.wordpress.org has links to SoC site
already, I reckon we don't need to contact him wit hthat
09:19 < couf> glezos: /me can co-mentor on that one
09:20 < glezos> how can we make sure the applicants indeed take it
seriously and will walk it through?
09:20 < couf> basicly the money does it all :)
09:20 < stickster> quaid: Good point, /me needs to read more
09:21 < couf> anyone want to take the PDF conversion?
09:22 < stickster> I can't commit for any mentoring this summer, my
schedule is more than spoken for at this point :-\
09:22 < stickster> I'm happy to drop in and advise ad-hoc anytime though
09:22 < quaid> hmm
09:22 < stickster> "asst. mentor"
09:22 < quaid> I was looking to step back a bit and give others a chance
to mentor
09:23 < quaid> maybe we can co-mentor on the Plone one and I'll catch
all the slack
09:24 < stickster> Guys, we need to get quaid out of doing every task.
I wish I could do more but I can't commit more time until probably
around July.
09:24 < EvilBob> I am willing to co-mentor however It would not be right
to Mentor Damaestro because of our other working relationship
09:24 < stickster> Oh, do you employ him on the side? Like $$$?
09:24 < stickster> or maybe just 1 $ :-D
09:24 < glezos> is there no chance any older FDSCo members to help out?
09:25 < quaid> we'll have to ask
09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: something like that
09:25 < quaid> we can proceed and work out the mentoring as we go, too
09:25 < couf> sure
09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: he is a resource in my business I will put
it that way
09:25 < stickster> I see
09:26 < couf> Shall we move on?
09:26 < quaid> k
09:26 < glezos> I should mention that mmcgrath might be interested in
co-mentoring the L10N WUI too (the multi-repository thing anyway).
09:27 < glezos> docs.fedoraproject.org
09:27 < glezos> quaid, any comments/updates?
09:28 -!- hers [n=chatzill(a)222.248.201.228] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77
[Firefox 2.0.0.2/0000000000]"]
09:28 < quaid> you know ...
09:28 < stickster> Hmm, mmcgrath as mentor -- great way to ensure things
are Done Right
09:28 < stickster> s/mentor/co-mentor/
09:29 < quaid> I'm unclear, sorry, if when we tag LIVE in CVS which site
it is going to
09:29 < quaid> I've asked mmcgrath but I haven't noticed his response :)
09:29 < stickster> quaid: I haven't tried it lately to see
09:29 < quaid> we need the LIVE tagging to affect docs.fp.o now
09:30 < quaid> so we can reorganize that side
09:30 < couf> iirc, it's still only going to f.r.c
09:30 < stickster> Does Mike know where that CVS=>Web glue is on f.r.c?
09:30 * quaid posted a change last week, looks
09:30 < quaid> he does
09:31 < glezos> I know it's pretty late, but I'd like once more to raise
the issue of doing it under fp.org/docs/
09:31 < quaid> ok, that change went to fr.c
09:31 < quaid> glezos: FI said it would be easier to handle a sub-domain
09:31 < quaid> and we want one URL, right?
09:31 < stickster> yup
09:31 < quaid> and there is an existing trend in the project to use
name.fp.org
09:31 < couf> +1
09:32 < quaid> hosted.fp.org, cvs.fp.o, git.fp.org, etc.
09:32 < stickster> quaid: What was your change?
09:32 < stickster> nm
09:33 < quaid>
http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/s1-ui-gnome-guidelines.html
09:33 < glezos> if plone comes, it will be under fp.org/. If we then
decide to integrate docs in there, we'd do it at fp.org/docs/, right?
09:33 < quaid> wrapped HIG citetitle with a url
09:33 < quaid> glezos: nope
09:33 < quaid> glezos: that is our choice, right?
09:33 < glezos> quaid, ok.. I'm just trying to make sure we won't have
to make redirects in the future.
09:34 < quaid> well, we likely want to redirect from /docs
09:34 < glezos> ok.
09:34 < couf> with Plone we could have fp.org/docs which collects links
to docs.fp.org
09:34 < quaid> let's put it this way ...
09:34 < quaid> we can still debate this, if we want
09:34 < quaid> I'm not locked in anything
09:34 < quaid> and yes this is the best/last chance, I think
09:35 < stickster> But if FI has reasons why they want it docs.fp.o,
argue it there
09:35 < quaid> mike said we can do it any way we want, but the sub-dmain
was "easier" or "better" I disrecall which
09:35 < quaid> but it is up to us what we want
09:35 < stickster> I haven't observed us really caring one way or the
other, so we yield to FI
09:36 < stickster> As long as Google leads readers to the good stuff
09:36 < glezos> quaid, I don't have a preference. Only to not have to
change it in the future.
09:36 < stickster> We shouldn't have to, I would think.
09:36 < stickster> mod_rewrite makes everything OK, yes?
09:37 < glezos> stickster, well.. not exactly. Cookies might have a
problem for subdomains for example.
09:37 < stickster> That only depends on our giving them out properly,
though, right?
09:37 < glezos> My only reservation is that subdomains are usually
totally separate systems or software. They serve completely different
functionality. But sure, with mod_rewrites you can get it all done.
09:37 < EvilBob> !
09:37 < stickster> Again, this is for an FI argument. As a Doc'er, I
totally don't care.
09:38 < glezos> OK, let's move on. I don't want to delay discussions. I
will talk it up with mmcgrath to make sure.
09:38 < EvilBob> I would suggest our plone work happen under fp.o
09:38 < EvilBob> use docs.fp.o for published xml results
09:39 < quaid> yet docs.fp.o is going to be a plone front-end
09:39 < quaid> that is, it will be a virtual folder or something, right?
09:39 < glezos> quaid, no idea.
09:40 < EvilBob> I would think that d.fp.o would be static only
09:40 < stickster> I disagree, I see GNOME using subdomains for working
projects
09:40 < stickster> And they're using Plone AIUI
09:41 * glezos is OK with both ways.
09:42 < glezos> shall we move on?
09:42 < quaid> EvilBob: I think static is orthogonal in this case; yes
static output, but it should be put in that location by plone via
workflow
09:42 < quaid> well
09:42 < quaid> I guess I'm not done
09:42 < stickster> heh
09:42 < quaid> I want to get a "litmus test" here
09:42 < quaid> Red Hat IS 'recommends' that we just redirect from
f.r.c/* to fp.org and let people find what they want from there
09:43 < quaid> this is because they maintain a >1000 line set of
redirects around redhat.com and say it is crazy-making
09:43 < quaid> so, mmcgrath and I discussed and we recommend a
mod_rewrite rule
09:43 < quaid> that will preserve the post / content and let us parse it
on the Fedora side (so no hassle to RH IS any more)
09:44 < glezos> quaid, sounds rational.
09:44 < quaid> so, this is still in negotiation, afaict; since we don't
get to tell them what to do but only ask, we can't be sure how things
are going to land.
09:44 < quaid> so there is a chance it will be the first
09:44 < quaid> that is, all redirect to front page, start googlejuice
from scratch, etc.
09:44 < EvilBob> NOTE: there are issues when using multiple domains and
subdomains in plone
09:44 < quaid> my assumption is that this is bad from a user experience,
but I want to hear from ya'll
09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: what about subdomains in one domain/.
09:45 < quaid> ?
09:45 < EvilBob> that is what I was trying to make clear and failed
09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: meaning, subs in one domain should be OK, but
across multiple domains is crazy?
09:45 < EvilBob> quaid: each (sub)domain requires a swperate plone
instance
09:46 < EvilBob> errr instance is the wrong word
09:46 < EvilBob> testing.fu.o is not the same plone site as fu.o for
example
09:47 < stickster> Can't it be, if you mod_rewrite from Apache as the
front end?
09:47 < glezos> Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for a software system
to choke with subdomains.. That's why usually they are intended for
different systems (bugzilla, cvs-frontend, web content). Heck, even web
designers have problems (grabbing images with relative paths)
09:47 < EvilBob> each and every one of the unity sites are separate
09:48 < glezos> We can further discuss this on the mailing list CCed
with -infrastructure.
09:49 < quaid> how a bout just on f-i-l?
09:49 < stickster> glezos++
09:49 < glezos> quaid, ok
09:49 < stickster> Oops, I'm not on f-i-l
09:49 < quaid> since it's really a technical issue
09:49 < EvilBob> we have hacked together a system that shares the user
accounts but the content is completely separate and you need to login
when changing name space
09:49 < quaid> stickster: :D
09:49 < quaid> EvilBob: ok, great point, thanks
09:49 * stickster refuses to join another mailing list until he drops
at least two
09:49 < stickster> :-d
09:49 < stickster> :-d
09:49 < quaid> stickster: i've got some suggestions ... :D
09:49 < stickster> aw, hell with it
09:49 < stickster> heh
09:49 < stickster> awright, trans update
09:50 < quaid> is that me?
09:50 * quaid guesses so
09:51 < couf> hmm no it's glezos :)
09:51 < quaid> oh, good
09:51 < quaid> except I guess I have something to report to him :)
09:51 < couf> then go on :)
09:51 < glezos> um
09:51 < glezos> well, I tried GNOME's Damned Lies interface
09:51 < quaid> on Friday i talked with mmcgrath and poelcat (John
Poelstra); poelcat is now looking into the feasibility of him being a
facilitator within Red hat for those parts
09:52 < glezos> Which seems to have future. I contacted it's maintainer
and he said he's willing to help out in porting (it's already well
written and supoprts modules etc)
09:52 < quaid> meaning we'd need to PM the Fedora side ourselves
09:52 < glezos> The second part of L10N WUI that quaid and I are
thinking is make it possible to serve remotely-hosted POs (ie act as a
SCM client)
09:53 < glezos> See:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/RFR/L10nCVSandUI
09:53 * EvilBob is away (phone)
09:53 < glezos> Sonar_Gal, if we find a student to investigate these two
for GSoC we'd be perfect.
09:53 < couf> poor Sonar_Gal
09:53 < glezos> agr. So, So, *So*
09:54 < glezos> We could also write them as two different proposals,
right?
09:55 < stickster> 11 min/me reads
09:55 < stickster> oops, I mean:
09:55 < stickster> me reads
09:56 < quaid> from what I was reporting, a different twist has come up
that I think we should address/decide upon
09:56 < quaid> but I'm unclear if it is ours to decide :)
09:56 < quaid> so maybe a step back ...
09:56 < quaid> do we feel we have enough representation from all the
involved communities?
09:56 < quaid> to form a short-term SIG so we can vote/decide on stuff.
09:57 < stickster> having couf and glezos here helps, but we should
probably reach out for some more input, yes
09:57 < quaid> in that I don't think this is really FDSCo's to
decide ...
09:57 < couf> hmm, good question, sig++ both involvment: not that much
imo
09:57 < quaid> ok, so here is the ponderable ...
09:57 < couf> s/both/but
09:57 < quaid> poelcat is checking on a possible resource offer from the
group that 'owns' elvis.rh.c internally
09:58 < quaid> not knowing yet what that means ... I want to figure out
what parameters we have for accepting such help/.
09:58 < quaid> for example, here are two ways I could see help coming:
09:58 < quaid> i. Help comes to work within the community on a joint
solution; sharing of resources; Fedora/RHEL model, etc.
09:59 < quaid> ii. Help comes to "fix" problems in elvis.rh.c, and keeps
all their work and processes internal until they are ready for us to
start testing externally
09:59 < quaid> would we want help in both of those cases? or only in
i)?
09:59 < stickster> only i.
09:59 < couf> only i
10:00 < quaid> I share this feeling :)
10:00 < quaid> but ...
10:00 < quaid> the problem is I don't speak the 100+ languages of our
trans community
10:00 < glezos> quaid, I'm for i too, and AFAICT, mspevack shares this
opinion.
10:00 < quaid> and what if 80% of them want "big Daddy Red hat" to take
care of this for them, and they don't care
10:01 < glezos> (ie bring Fedora-affected systems & processes to the
community space)
10:01 < couf> hmm, I'm noticing a change of attitude towards this on the
trans-list, people are stepping up
10:01 < quaid> I'm concerned that we are acting from a perceived
opinion, that is, we perceive that the rest of the l10n community shares
our opinion, when we can't directly know that because of lang and
cultural differences
10:01 < couf> and are feeling things have to change
10:01 < glezos> quaid, I'll make that clear enough: 99% of the L10N
community does translations for Fedora, not RHEL.
10:02 < quaid> yes, but does "vocal" == "majority"?
10:02 < quaid> glezos: :)
10:02 < couf> quaid: fair enough
10:02 < stickster> We want to avoid disenfranchising folks, especially
since it could affect overall Fedora l10n
10:03 < stickster> But FOSS has always been about taking
ownership/responsibility for doing things
10:03 < quaid> ok
10:03 < glezos> stickster, certainly. But we need to be able to do our
jobs. We want to do much more than what elvis can provide and we are
willing to do them quickly.
10:03 < stickster> We could take a better quality, lower drag poll, I
suppose
10:03 < couf> the big problem is that not everyone is on the list, and
looks at it
10:03 < quaid> right
10:03 < stickster> If people don't have to write an email to the list,
we may get more responses.
10:03 < stickster> sure, there's that as ewll.
10:03 < stickster> s/ewll/well/
10:03 < quaid> and the thing is ... the translators who work for RH are
on many sub-lists and they could tell us, but what would they tell us?
10:04 * EvilBob is off the phone
10:04 < EvilBob> I need to run, buddy is broke down....
10:04 < quaid> ok, I guess the point is not really moot
10:04 < quaid> EvilBob: cheers
10:04 < glezos> My goal for L10N WUI is for it to support upstream
translations. If this works, then RH could use it for any project it
likes.
10:04 < quaid> in that Fedora leadership doesn't want systems that
happen behind doors for us to "benefit" from
10:05 < quaid> we have taken the lesser-quality-for-now because it is
open stance
10:05 < quaid> glezos: +1 we could do this the right way, for sure
10:05 < stickster> We can attract more interest and participation by
simply starting the gears turning
10:05 < quaid> ok, I just wanted to be sure we all agreed oon this
direction, and my thinking was sound.
10:06 * stickster wants to make sure someone keeps in the back of their
head that we would like to connect this, as well, to Plone in the
far-flung future if at all possible
10:06 < glezos> Ideally, this shift towards the community space will
benefit all of us. So, I see the best thing would be for RH L10N team to
help materialize our vision, just like the Merge.
10:06 < quaid> glezos: I saw you wondering about "does scml10n need to
sign the GPG" and I can't see any way around it
10:06 < quaid>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Drafts/CLAAcceptanceHierarchies...
10:06 < stickster> glezos: Right. The reason that has worked out so
well is that people Just Did It.
10:06 < quaid> the proposal there is clear -- once in SCM, the risk is
higher, etc.
10:07 < stickster> Extras is the biggest success story in Fedora
10:07 < couf> yeah certainly CLA for cvsl10n
10:07 < quaid> note that ... Fedora didn't do the best internal
marketing job around the mere
10:07 < stickster> quaid: CLA++
10:07 < quaid> merge
10:07 < glezos> quaid, right now they don't have to sign the CLA for
i18n.redhat.com.
10:07 < quaid> and we are trying to avoid stepping in that bear trap
10:07 < quaid> glezos: yes, I know; they should have; IMNSHO that was a
big mistake
10:07 < stickster> quaid: I'm not so sure that it was a bad job... but I
don't see the internal lists. ;-)
10:07 < couf> glezos: CLA was concieved after i18n
10:08 < quaid> we are shipping lots of content we don't have a clear
right to use, unless there is something in i18n I don't get
10:08 < stickster> There hasn't been much public grumbling, and what
there was of it was mostly due to misunderstandings and people
entrenching for no good reason.
10:08 < glezos> quaid, there is an alternative. Give the option through
the WUI for a person to submit a translation and the language maintainer
has to approve/commit it.
10:08 < quaid> glezos: sure
10:08 < quaid> glezos: that's like the Wiki model
10:08 < couf> QA is realy needed
10:09 < quaid> they still need to agree to something when submitting
that is essentially the CLA :)
10:09 < quaid> that is, the WikiLicense is really the CLA + OPL
10:09 < glezos> OK. Once we have a prototype WUI we can figure more
complex stuff then.
10:09 < stickster> This all comes back to the click-through, waiting on
Legal.
10:09 < quaid> I think it is a big mistake to ever debate if a
contribution "should" be under the CLA
10:10 < quaid> when an Ambassador makes a speach, it's a contribution,
needs to be covered, etc.
10:10 < quaid> stickster: working on that one :)
10:10 < quaid> my "PlainEnglishCLA" did offend, which I was afraid
of :), and got justly shot-down
10:10 < glezos> quaid, let's just say that the actual committer takes
responsibility for the submitted contributions. I think these are
slightly minor issues.
10:10 < stickster> Careful with extending the license agreement to vocal
speech
10:10 * quaid had called it "HumanSpeakCLA" but changed that to not
offend the lawyers
10:11 < glezos> lol
10:11 < quaid> glezos: good point, like bugzilla; minor point
10:11 < stickster> I think you'd find a lot of trouble in that. If it's
a written presentation that's held somewhere or committed to paper,
sure... but speech is not generally licensed :-)
10:11 < quaid> stickster: yes, I mean, written and put on wiki
10:11 < quaid> or whatever
10:11 < stickster> heh
10:11 < stickster> ok, +1 that
10:11 < quaid> I just mean, don't try to classify what is or is not a
contribution
10:11 < couf> :)
10:12 < stickster> right
10:12 < quaid> rather classify what is the risk in taking that
contribution
10:12 < stickster> If it goes in, it has to be covered, period.
10:12 < stickster> If we hold on to it, it has to be covered.
10:12 < quaid> and applyu CLA difficulties by risk levels
10:12 < quaid> submit via bugzilla or ml as a patch, low risk, etc.
10:12 < quaid> ok, we've beaten on this one enough?
10:13 < glezos> guess so
10:13 < quaid> I'll let you know what poelcat says
10:13 < quaid> but we're essentially on our own on the Fedora side
10:13 < couf> yay
10:13 < quaid> and we're seeking clarity on what "don't break our
system" means so we can achieve or reject that
10:14 < stickster> OK, so back to agenda then... wiki reorg ==> couf
10:14 < stickster> yes?
10:14 < couf> all right
10:14 < couf> everyone has seen it, and approved right?
10:15 < couf>
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00039.html
10:16 < stickster> Yes, with comments as posted earlier
10:16 < couf> I'm just looking for the best way to get this started
10:16 * quaid admits to not having dived into that one
10:16 < couf> i) get an wiki from FI (RFR)
10:16 < glezos> couf, write a wiki page with the structure as bullets?
10:17 < couf> ii) personal wiki-userspace
10:17 < couf> iii) just dive in
10:17 < glezos> I'd vote for iii)
10:17 < stickster> iii)
10:18 < quaid> fine with me
10:18 < stickster> couf: See how much you can do by only reorganizing,
and cutting, pages
10:18 < stickster> Rather than writing *more*
10:18 < couf> right on, I'm planning on doing this in the next two weeks
10:18 < couf> stickster: I'm going for less rather than more
10:19 < stickster> We can always hand-craft later as needed
10:19 < quaid> yes, odds are, what we need is there, and needs to be
trimmed and combined
10:19 < stickster> hoo-rah
10:20 < stickster> couf: Anything else you need before starting?
10:20 < couf> hmm, not really, I'm gonna setup a template this week
10:20 < quaid> ref. Docs/Drafts => DocsProject/Drafts ... I think we
want to keep those in Docs/ because we want people to 'beta test' them
10:21 < stickster> Yeah, I think someone mentioned that on the list...
hmmm, lemmesee
10:21 < couf> yeah I got that one :)
10:21 < quaid> ok, good
10:21 * quaid missed that, just read through the thread
10:21 < stickster> coo'
10:21 < quaid> otherwise it sounds great to me, and I'll help wherever I
can as we proceed
10:22 * stickster notes, moving up on 90 minutes, meeting red alert!
10:22 < couf> okay guys, in two weeks the project-wiki will be totaly
different :)
10:22 < couf> cool
10:22 < couf> let's move on then :)
10:22 < stickster> OK, PDF
10:22 < couf> Last item on list is PDF
10:23 < glezos> next subject: PDF guides. Should we bother going after
them *now* or wait for F7 to make them through the tolchain?
10:23 < stickster> I would rather do this right (and leverage GSoC) than
do it twice
10:24 < glezos> stickster, we could get F7 IG in PDF with cups-pdf with
a couple of clicks..
10:24 * stickster has yet to see a stunning argument for PDF production
other than allowing people to print something prettier than HTML, which
isn't necessarily in our interests...
10:24 * glezos thinks PDFs will increase the popularity of our Docs
10:24 < stickster> We can allow users to do this now with a print CSS
and save the trouble
10:25 < glezos> people just save it on their Desktops for future
reference for example...
10:25 < stickster> In the web includes: "Print me!"
10:25 < stickster> For future reference when? After they install?
10:25 < stickster> We want people to come back for the latest version
10:25 < quaid> it's all about different styles
10:25 < stickster> yeah, I'm not opposed to PDF at all, just for the
record
10:25 < quaid> enough people like the PDF style for a guide, but
honestly its hard to tell how much it matters
10:26 < glezos> I guess people just don't know that some HTML is very
nicely printable
10:26 < stickster> I just think having to keep up with republishing
manually is dreary
10:26 < stickster> glezos: the "Print Me" button can take care of that.
10:26 < couf> right, we should just have the "print me" link on the page
and let users do it
10:27 * stickster has printed several articles from RHM for example, to
distribute to bosses and peers
10:27 < quaid> that would be worth rebuilding docs for, yes
10:27 < stickster> Well, the print me button should appear courtesy of
SSI's and not in our publishing process, IYAM
10:27 < quaid> since some of them aren't even buildable but need porting
to the new Makefile/tools
10:28 < couf> and if anyone comes up with *the* solution to PDF
production, we'll handle it then
10:28 < glezos> anyway. just thinking that people do like PDFs, not sure
for what reasons though... probably the self-packed
one-file-contains-everything idea
10:28 < stickster> Oh I see, you mean, "Wow, I'd even fix <XYZ> doc if
it got that button slapped on it"
10:29 < stickster> For our *real* PDF's, I really want an actual
to-die-for style, including stylish page markings and sidebars from
admonitions.
10:29 < couf> stickster++
10:29 < glezos> stickster+++
10:29 * couf has to bail
10:29 < glezos> we've even found a name for the style... to-die-for.xsl
10:30 < couf> see ya (buffer rolling)
10:30 -!- couf is now known as couf_away
10:30 < stickster> heh
10:30 < stickster> bye couf
10:31 < glezos> Haven't received any emails on this:
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00139.html
10:31 < quaid> so, can we do the SSI version?
10:31 < stickster> quaid: that depends on how we publish to docs.fp.o
10:31 < quaid> stickster: today it is the same as f.r.c
10:31 < stickster> Right now, there's bare PHP sitting up there with
nothing backing it up
10:31 < quaid> and is likely to stay that way for a while
10:32 < stickster> So we certainly can move the includes there as well,
and restyle if necessary
10:32 < stickster> Is PHP running on that host? And is it likely to?
10:32 < stickster> (if not)
10:33 < stickster> glezos: Give it a couple days, weekend work is
sketchy
10:33 < quaid> I don't know how he has it set up
10:33 < stickster> me neither
10:33 < quaid> well, presumably like before
10:34 < quaid> PHP builds static pages on the backend
10:34 < quaid> I can include the SSI wherever we want
10:34 < stickster> Yeah, I think we need the images up there too
10:34 < stickster> And the CSS for now, so we can monkey with it
10:35 < stickster> Wait... where will we access all that?
10:35 < quaid> via cvs
10:35 < stickster> Oh, I guess if he just hooks those in from the Web
module in CVS the same way, should be fine
10:35 < stickster> jinx
10:35 < quaid> yep, and I'm ready to reorganize to chop out all the
non-docs from the Nav
10:35 < stickster> OK, may have just missed those pieces then
10:35 < stickster> I can help too
10:35 < quaid> cool
10:36 < stickster> The "Print Me" shouldn't be too hard
10:36 < quaid> let's first get the word that pub of LIVE is on
docs.fp.o, which it appears it is not
10:36 < stickster> We'll add a publishing bit for html-nochunks to fit
into, that would be the best printable I would think
10:36 < glezos> CSS can do very neat things.. unfortunately not
everything, but OK.
10:37 < mmcgrath> quaid: I'll set that up today (the whole live publish)
10:38 < glezos> should we publish the meeting log? Or probably trancuate
it leaving only the TODO stuff (as reminders for next week)?
10:39 < stickster> Marvelous Mike makes a miraculous meeting
materialization!
10:39 < quaid> mmcgrath: ok, I was just emailing f-i-l
10:39 * quaid cancels that
10:39 < quaid> glezos: both; full log with summary above
10:41 < quaid> </meeting>
--
Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project
Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
17 years, 1 month
