On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 15:09 -0600, Nathanael D. Noblet wrote:
On Mon, 2018-07-16 at 17:32 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
Basic:
"The installed system must be able appropriately to install, remove, and update software with the default console tool for the relevant software type (e.g. default console package manager). This includes downloading of packages to be installed/updated."
Just a small typo/grammar correction I think.
"The installed system must be able to appropriately install, remove, and update.."
just moved the 'to' infront of appropriately.. Apologies if that's a dumb thing to nit-pick. Otherwise looks good to me.
This is the old English grammatical chestnut known as the "split infinitive" (or rather, in the case of my draft, the infinitive is intentionally *not* split).
Both forms are used, and mean the same. The one I chose is sometimes considered the more 'classically' correct, and some stick-in-the-muds consider your form to be incorrect. Wikipedia has quite a good article on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 14:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
To be clearer here, consider these options:
"...to appropriately install, remove and update..." "...to install, remove and update appropriately..." "...appropriately to install, remove and update..."
To me, it's at least possible that someone might read the first as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "install", and the second as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "update". The third, however, can't really be understood in any way *other* than with "appropriately" applying to all three actions.
On 07/17/2018 02:53 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 14:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
To be clearer here, consider these options:
"...to appropriately install, remove and update..." "...to install, remove and update appropriately..." "...appropriately to install, remove and update..."
To me, it's at least possible that someone might read the first as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "install", and the second as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "update". The third, however, can't really be understood in any way *other* than with "appropriately" applying to all three actions.
I can still see the third as being interpreted as applying to install only. How about:
"...to appropriately perform the action required (install, remove or update)..."
Language and statistics are akin to a bikini...what they reveal is suggestive, and what they conceal is vital!
Just my $0.02 (in US dollars) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks@alldigital.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - What's small, yellow and very, VERY dangerous? The root canary! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 14:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
To be clearer here, consider these options:
"...to appropriately install, remove and update..." "...to install, remove and update appropriately..." "...appropriately to install, remove and update..."
To me, it's at least possible that someone might read the first as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "install", and the second as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "update". The third, however, can't really be understood in any way *other* than with "appropriately" applying to all three actions.
Use a colon.
to appropriately: install, remove, and update...
Unambiguous.
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 14:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
To be clearer here, consider these options:
"...to appropriately install, remove and update..." "...to install, remove and update appropriately..." "...appropriately to install, remove and update..."
To me, it's at least possible that someone might read the first as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "install", and the second as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "update". The third, however, can't really be understood in any way *other* than with "appropriately" applying to all three actions.
Use a colon.
to appropriately: install, remove, and update...
Unambiguous.
Just drop "appropriately" and replace it with a footnote. Then there is no need for all of this discussion and the text is easier to read (also installing the correct update falls into common sense hence for most people it will be clear even without reading the footnote).
On Wed, 2018-07-18 at 08:49 +0200, drago01 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 14:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
To be clearer here, consider these options:
"...to appropriately install, remove and update..." "...to install, remove and update appropriately..." "...appropriately to install, remove and update..."
To me, it's at least possible that someone might read the first as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "install", and the second as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "update". The third, however, can't really be understood in any way *other* than with "appropriately" applying to all three actions.
Use a colon.
to appropriately: install, remove, and update...
Unambiguous.
Just drop "appropriately" and replace it with a footnote. Then there is no need for all of this discussion and the text is easier to read (also installing the correct update falls into common sense hence for most people it will be clear even without reading the footnote).
There already is a footnote; to me the footnote reads better if it has a word in the text to key off.
To be honest I don't think anyone's actually pointed out any real *problem* with the revised draft yet and I'm inclined to just go with it, after a few more days for substantive feedback.
On Wed, 2018-07-18 at 12:51 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2018-07-18 at 08:49 +0200, drago01 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, 2018-07-17 at 14:48 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I instinctively like the non-split form here because, to me, it emphasizes more clearly that "appropriately" applies to all three actions.
To be clearer here, consider these options:
"...to appropriately install, remove and update..." "...to install, remove and update appropriately..." "...appropriately to install, remove and update..."
To me, it's at least possible that someone might read the first as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "install", and the second as if the "appropriately" applies only to the action "update". The third, however, can't really be understood in any way *other* than with "appropriately" applying to all three actions.
Use a colon.
to appropriately: install, remove, and update...
Unambiguous.
Just drop "appropriately" and replace it with a footnote. Then there is no need for all of this discussion and the text is easier to read (also installing the correct update falls into common sense hence for most people it will be clear even without reading the footnote).
There already is a footnote; to me the footnote reads better if it has a word in the text to key off.
To be honest I don't think anyone's actually pointed out any real *problem* with the revised draft yet and I'm inclined to just go with it, after a few more days for substantive feedback.
I'm going ahead and implementing the proposal broadly as last drafted, I think there was sufficient agreement on the important parts of the proposal. If the precise wording gives us trouble in future, it can always be amended. Thanks, folks!
-
Adam Williamson -
Chris Murphy -
drago01 -
Rick Stevens