Hi All, Although that was fairly constructive in relation to adding the wiki in the browsers for further clarification and helping out new users to links and the like could we possibly add fedora forum and maybe fedora faq. The only problem that might happen with adding those is that they suggest multimedia support and that might go against the grain of fedora or what fedora stands for. I think Karsten listed all the major ones that I read and I thought that weren't right. I installed FC4 and had no issues in fact I think its a major improvement granted there are bugs but being bleeding edge was the reason for me getting involved with fedora. I wonder whether he filled bug reports? IMO most of the complaints centred around multimedia which I managed to get going very quickly anyway in my install. He's trying apt compared to yum albeit it worked before but the repositories take time to update for apt. Compared to yum which updates rapidly. Also I believe the majority of apt repositories are NOT fedora-extras or the 'genuine' fedora repository correct me if I'm wrong. The problem is this is a linux guy that has spread FUD and I'm not sure how many people believe him so I'm wondering how many people /won't/ try fedora because of this. Its hard enough facing other OS FUD let alone facing it from inside. I'm assuming that its a fine line between honest criticism and actual misinformation. IMO as well is that articles like this need to be dealt with in some way by the 'marketing' group so that as a group we can progress towards people knowing exactly what fedora is and isn't. The long term users understand, but the new users don't understand and they would be reading articles like this and saying well thats a buggy os I'm definately not trying it now. I don't feel that we want Fedora to become an experienced user distro because fresh blood is great for finding bugs as well as putting genuine ideas forward that people maybe have not considered. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra Choice Tyre Wholesalers like this need to be looked at because it can only hinder the progress of postings to this list of all review of Fedora. Rahul, for one, takes the effort to contact writers and set them straight on the facts. curious what you see? Mincing words about beta in a release is contrary to the spirit and history of highly advancing open source. Beta and release are proprietary formats such as Windows Media, DVD, and MP3, though having used past Red Hat/Fedora releases, I would expect nothing more. Previously, enabling these multimedia types was not a hard task, but this time, it's daunting." the distro and what is supplied by other repositories: great package management tool, and use that to install the necessary packages. That worked in previous Fedora releases, but not in Fedora Core 4." gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41

-- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra Choice Tyre Wholesalers Wrong wording but I'm still very patriotic to fedora if that can be used together. Granted however it seemed really one sided. He/she seemed very much wanting things to be 'closer' to the put in and install straight away type which I personally don't like but everyone to his own. The complaints however seemed like the majority is caused by him however there was no acknowledgement of his perceived ways of doing things. The fact that his choice was apt seemed to be that he was assessing(typo) from a debian perspective which I think is not in the 'spirit' of how to do things. Since Fedora is obviously not a debian fork or debian based distro.

Sankarshan Mukhopadhay wrote: But obviously they weren't answered for the review author. So there is a problem in our getting the message out. What good is the wiki if its not helping our users?

On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 12:16:14AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: PS: serious suggestion, not just being a smartass because you're the maintainer of that package. :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/> Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/> Current office temperature: 80 degrees Fahrenheit.

On 07/19/2005 12:16 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: I've actually been considering this for a bit. It's probably too late for FC3 and FC4 (default installs will have the current default, and updates won't fix that.). We can do it for FC5 though, but I'd like to see it done in one shot rather than change a bookmark here, a bookmark there.... I'm not sure I want to get into suggestion war over this, either. I'll probably attempt to come up with a reasonable set of defaults one of these days with a few people and stick it in the rawhide packages.

On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: I personally, as a person, think that reviewers would most benefit from a guided tour experience where the nicer or newer things are highlighted and the consistently more contraversial items like the lack of mp3 support are explained. Other very new users would of course benefit from such a guided tour. Think of it as our highlight reel. Provide access to the highlight reel on firstboot and later via a menu item. Being able to do this in a livecd format would make some sense as well as providing the guided tour experience in the standard desktop install. I quick an dirty way to mock up some guided segments is to just come up with a top ten list of tasks that we think 90% of "reviewers" going to want to perform as part of their review process.. and then do a quick video capture segment of starting with a default gnome desktop and performing the task. Using a small text editor or sticky note pad window to type in text notes as you go. We've seen some developers do this in blog entries already.. i think you can do it to theora or svg, I know you can do it with flash but we cant depend on flash since we dont ship flash support...yet. You could of course go further and do semi-professional video editting with audio and translations, but as a first cut the video captures of a desktop in use with simple text notes in the video serves the purpose pretty well. Of course, some reviewers LOVE to base their reviews on the final test release so they can have their review out on the day of the final release. Getting guided segments out soon enough to stick into the face of the first reviewers is going to be tough. -jef

On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: Isn't everything? And who says we have to do it perfectly right the first time? Doing audio or text overlay or any editting at all is going to complicate things sure... but maybe we don't "need" that to make a positive impact compared to where we are now. Are rough theora video captures of desktop tasks better than nothing? Are rough video captures "good enough"? Initially just sticking them on the website and having the release notes and the default browser page list the rough.. "community provided" walk-through theora videos for the top 10 tasks could be a benefit. And from there if people with video editting experience in the community can volunteer to do a more polished second generation...fine. -jef"I've always found that magic bullets tend to be expensive"spaleta

On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: unlike fudcon.. we arent talking about setting a camera or additional hardware.. all the capture stuff that I'm talking about is done in software.. i think some of the technics essentially act as a vnc client to a vnc session. grrr i can't remember which of the gnome developers had their little videos on their blog.... -jef

On 7/19/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: bah...crap.. davidz used a flash based capture in his blog http://blog.fubar.dk/?p=56 -jef

I'm seeing a new HOWTO for the docs team... "HOWTO make a video tutorial for Fedora..." --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:

On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 10:35 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: These screencasts have been added to the list of acceptable documentation formats for Fedora. We've been researching solutions for several weeks. Our basic idea was to supplement our docs with screencasts. However, this idea of having multiple screencasts available during firstboot is awesome. BTW, this is not rocket science, but details need to be resolved in the FOSS side. Tech journalists do this all the time, using proprietary tools, so it's not that difficult. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

On Tue, 2005-07-19 at 14:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: 1. Making MP3s play in XMMS Just kidding! I'll add this topic to the FDSCo meeting agenda for today (4 pm EDT), to see if anyone has any favorites there, and will post them back here. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:37:27 -0400, "Paul W. Frields" <stickster(a)gmail.com&gt; said: Configuring the update applet is fairly common and easy task, since it doesn't have many decision points - you can basically just click "Next" if you don't have a proxy server. -- Stuart Ellis stuart(a)elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

On 7/19/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Yep I just got confirmation about the problem from j5. My little experiment using istanbul or more primatively gst-launch is going to have to wait for a new version of gstreamer-plugins in rawhide that includes the ximagesrc plugin. As soon as j5 has the time( and this by no means is meant to make him feel rushed ) to push the update to gstreamer-plugins anyone running rawhide, including myself, will be able to follow up with some example raw theora videos either using gst-launch from the cmdline or with istanbul. -jef"the real question is.. can I come up with a name better than 'monkey hoot' for my new video production endeavor"spaleta

On 7/19/05, Jesse Keating <jkeating(a)j2solutions.net&gt; wrote: niiiiiiiiiice. And that names going to come in handy right away. The problem I was having.. has been fixed.. without needing to do any rebuilding of core packages. I ran gst-register as root and ximagesrc is now availalbe. The packages I made for istanbul work. With J5's blessing I'll try to maintain them in Extras for the development tree. Now that the underlying problem is solved i can give you some mockup walk-through videos using gst-launch pipelines or with istanbul. -jef

On 7/20/05, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: yeah i can do that. The big issue right now is dropped frames because the cpu can't keep up with the requested image grabbing rate in some situations. I'm hoping to come up with a standard prescription with regard to desktop resolution, framerate, encoded image size for all videos being produced. This will imply a minimum cpu requirement to ensure no frame-drops using what we have available for gstreamer-plugins right now in rawhide. I need to come up with a simple test for frame-dropping that aspiring video-makers can run quickly to see if their hardware is keeping up for the "standard" video configuration. The ximagesrc gst element should improve over time so some of the issues here with regard to frame dropping should evaporate as part of rawhide churn towards fc5. I think long term you'll want to standardize on a low resolution desktop anyways so that you can encode to a reasonably sized image without loss of detail. 640x480 might be too small.. but 800x600 might be a reasonable desktop resolution to use when making task videos. -jef

On 7/20/05, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting Instabul package is going through review now. As soon as i get approval for it and the Extras build process comes back up people should be able to play around with this by pulling istanbul and gstreamers-plugins from development... even on an fc4 box. -jef

Am Dienstag, den 19.07.2005, 00:08 -0400 schrieb Christopher Aillon: I think what lacks is a solution. It is ok for Fedora to not distribute MP3 stuff. What i would like to see is to have an installer for enabling external yum repositories. So like from up2date one could choose: "add external sources". The list could be updated via web - and then there would be no problem, because only the enabling software is distributed. I do not understand why this opportunity is not provided. I guess this could be very easy. I think in marketing the answer not always should be RTFM but do soemthing about things that are obviously problematic. So some discussion from marketing to development. -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci(a)jabber.org

On 7/20/05, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Couldn't the user add the repo names themselves? Adding third party repositories is a legit feature in and of itself, so we could have a list of repos of official Fedora mirrors and channels like Extras and Alternatives (and stable/test/release etc), that was autopolulated, and a field for a user to add other URLs. Then we're just talking about a GUI for repo management. --jeremy

On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 12:35 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: Instead of a package, could repos make their details available via RSS feeds? You would past an RSS URL into the GUI tool and it would pull down the latest details. If the repo maintainer needed to update something, they wouldn't have to roll and release a new package. The GUI could check for repo updates daily, weekly, whatever. Yeah, I know, time to take this part of the conversation to f-devel-l. If anyone likes my idea, feel free to take it and champion it. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

On Fri, 2005-07-22 at 13:51 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: Sure, that makes sense. I was just looking for something that was better than "type it in by hand". A feed would be moderately better at this. But, yeah, it sucks for security. I didn't think the idea through for all implications. I feel end users might be confused by the idea of installing and updating a package in order to have the latest information on where packages are. But that is probably small minded of me. :) Otherwise, your shoot down of my idea is correct -- the security would be horrid and a reinvention. :) It might help to make fedora-announce-list available as an RSS feed, then ask repo packagers to advertise their updates there. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/

On 7/22/05, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: Having a specially crafted rss feed that can help a tool to import the repo key and then install the reponame-release package seemlessly for a repo is reasonable. Each post on to that rss feed would include 2 urls one for the repo key and one for the release package as well as some simple information describing the repo. The gui-tool could parse the structured posts to the rss feed and compile a list of additional repos from the user to select. On selection the keys for the repos are imported and then the signed packages which provide the configs are installed You still run into the problem of how to advertise that feed. I don't think you can get away with turning on support for a feed like that by default. And then there are the murky issues about how to notify the users about the consequences of choosing to use repos which overlap with Core and Extras.. before they choose to install configs for those repos. -jef

Am Mittwoch, den 20.07.2005, 12:46 -0400 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: So yumex must be escluded from fedora extras because it can import Repos? That can't be it. Why? Can't a Fedora application use the Google API to get the results? It can't be forbidden to help people. If he start here, where does this end? Do not provide bookmarks, because in China some news sites may be forbidden? I don't see an end of censorship if there can no be at least some hint. A tool to help to find repos must be Ok, we also provide browser that know Google - and Google is also a tool to find such repos. There must be at least some solution? Well then we should not provide network access or browsers at all... and no support for cd drives... What about a page in a tool that describes what is not possible and links to a further page and this page links to a google search - and this google search gives the result of a rpm-package that enables toe possibility for enabling more repositories. (not to make it complicated ... ;-) ) So the information is not on the CD and not at the official Fedora site. A google search result can easily be interated into an application. That information than is provided by Google and not by Fedora. Thilo -- http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci Jabber: vinci(a)jabber.org

On 7/23/05, Thilo Pfennig <tp(a)alternativ.net&gt; wrote: take a good long hard look at the yumex in extras. It no longer provides a static list of additional 3rd party repos in its install. 1) Use of google's api is for personal use only and requires users obtain a license key from Google unless the you can get written consent from Google to do something different. The restrictions google places on access to its web api is pretty impractical for any open source client. 2) While Google is pretty good, its not fool-proof. I would absolutely not trust pulling system configs directly from a list of websites Google returns without human review. And well.. if you are going to do human review.. you might as well just open up a browser and use google. If someone does attempt to make a tool that scrapes Google outout for webpages with system configs and repo definitions.. I will delibrately try to create a false website that gets highly ranked to disrupt the tool's use of google. Google is a tool to find anything... anywhere. A local user must initiate the communication with Google and must ask Google explicitly for things to search for. A tool designed only to find information about repos to help users obtain items we can't legally ship.. automatically... is totally different. Feel free to be as flippant as you want.. thats not going to change the fact that there are real legal issues here that Red Hat as the managing entity needs to be careful of. If you can't take this seriously.. then please.. just be quiet. Contributory infringement, involves a delibrate intent to knowingly aid others to infringe. I think its pretty damn clear that adding any tool that delibrately help users find additional repos and instantly configure them falls into the definition of contributory infringement. A tool that just handles repo configs is very narrowly defined, its not a general use tool. Most if not all of the popular 3rd party repos out there are popular specifically because they provide material that Fedora can not. - and I don't think you can get away with a pre-defined google search. Even if it was legally okay to do that, i think you can trust the accuracy of the pre-defined google search over the lifetime of a release. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who would delibrately attempt to corrupt the dynamic list of results to that google search, and I'm pretty sure the other people would put in pages far more malicious than mine. -jef

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: Better late than never, and hard to do everything right the first time. It's *probably* illegal to add 3rd party repos that we know to include infringing content -- because that would be the same as *knowingly directing users to illegal content*. Because most 3rd party repos don't care much about these issues (largely because they don't have to), it's too risky for us to refer users directly to these repos. Part of the problem is that the line isn't bright and clear. For that reason, we will be quite conservative in the decisions we make abut what might infringe. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan

Am Samstag, den 23.07.2005, 10:29 -0400 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: Ok, but where do we stop? Is Red Hat banning packages from distribution and content that is illegal in Russia or Italy? Would it be a good idea to ask the user on installation where he lives? The installer than could than have a different setup for different countries (another sort of localization). I do not like this direction, because things get split up. Debian also had repos they called "non-us". They had higher enrcyption bit sizes etc.. Did anyone consider that? Thilo -- blog: http://www.alternativ.net/~vinci license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/de/

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Jeremy Hogan wrote: "Software patents are for suckers." There's another good slogan for the list. Leave it to Slogan Hogan. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan

On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 17:55 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: Added: * Fedora: More freedom than you can shake a patent lawyer at! * Fedora: No patent lawyers were harmed in the making of this product. * Fedora: No patent lawyers profited due to the making of this product. * Fedora: All the fun you can have without a patent laywer. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating

I think the fact that RH sponsors in the corporate environment Fedora then its a target whether or not the majority of the users are outside the USA. Its basically the fact that Fedora is linked to redhat so we have to abide by the US laws whether we agree or not. Thats depressing I know however its life and as I had discussions in my business today about this I find certain aspects of laws in different countries silly, including my own but thats an off-topic discussion for a different day. -- Regards Marc Wiriadisastra

On 7/26/05, seth vidal <skvidal(a)phy.duke.edu&gt; wrote: I was referring to RH users. They're mostly in the US. I don't have exact numbers, but it wouldn't matter re: the point I was actually making. --jeremy