2:45 a.m.
Hello All,
A couple of things. I spent sometime last week trying to "checkout" the
website from the CVS. I followed everything that as was written on the
Fedoraproject.org website.. entered my GPG key etc. but with no luck.. I
tried to check out particular modules out of the CVS and did not get
anywhere.. so I emailed the repository administrator and am awaiting a
reply. I hope someone can help me with that here. Anyway.. When I saw
the Fedoraproject.org website (for the first time), I had a hard time
navigating it finding the right info. So I started tinkering around with
CSS and came up with a layout.
I did not know if there is a "test" fedora server it can be uploaded and
everyone can see it.. so I uploaded it on my own site.. at..
http://www.hrishikeshballal.net/other/fedora/ ...
Can you please take a look at it and give me some feedback on the what I
have so far so I can work on it later this week. As you can imagine all
the links etc are broken.. I wanted to create a better layout. I am no
artist and I don't know if we have one on this list.. I guess we need a
"logo".
I am not sure if anyone else is working on the website / layout,maybe
he / she can take some ideas from it. But if you have any suggestions,
comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply. Thanks
Hrishi
6:19 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
Hrishikesh Ballal wrote:
But if you have any suggestions,
comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply.
My first post to the list.
Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not
an immediate concern.
Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute
are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that
have decided to contribute and know where to go.
Fedora - *the distro, not the project* - needs a website.
Fedoraproject.org isn't it, cause of the name. fedora.redhat.com could
be it, but with completely different content.
A good example of sucessful OSS marketing is Firefox. When you visit
mozilla.org or getfirefox.com, what dop you see?
Is the front page taken up by stuff about the mozilla project, and how
to contribute to it? Maybe even making no mention that it's a web
browser, like fedora.redhat.com talks primarily describes fedora as an
'OSS project' rather than an actual linux distro?
IMHO, the primarily focus of Fedora marketing should be a website that
- aimed at users primarily, and developers secondarily
and creates
- Attention
- Interest
- Desire
- Action
Think getfedora.org. Joe user doesn't give a damn that 'The Fedora
Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and supported by
the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new technology
that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is not a
supported product of Red Hat, Inc.'
What they do care about is this:
- What is Fedora?
- Why do they want it?
- Where can they get it?
Mike
7:02 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 21:19 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Hrishikesh Ballal wrote:
>But if you have any suggestions,
>comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply.
>
My first post to the list.
Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not
an immediate concern.
Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute
are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that
have decided to contribute and know where to go.
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm
fairly certain you're very wrong. Moreover, for various and sundry
reasons we need to make fedoraproject.org more interesting and
consistent website. If only b/c the project pages can have much more
flexibility than the fedora.redhat.com pages.
A good example of sucessful OSS marketing is Firefox. When you visit
mozilla.org or getfirefox.com, what dop you see?
Is the front page taken up by stuff about the mozilla project, and how
to contribute to it? Maybe even making no mention that it's a web
browser, like fedora.redhat.com talks primarily describes fedora as an
'OSS project' rather than an actual linux distro?
And that's fine - fedora.redhat.com should be about
downloading/installing/using and could easily have a link to
fedoraproject.org for developer information and additional community
info.
Remember - fedora is not just about red hat.
-sv
7:25 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
seth vidal wrote:
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 21:19 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
>Hrishikesh Ballal wrote:
>
>
>
>>But if you have any suggestions,
>>comments brickbats on it please feel free to reply.
>>
>>
>>
>My first post to the list.
>
>Basically, marketing the Fedora project is a bad idea. Or at least, not
>an immediate concern.
>Very few people care about the project. Those that wish to contribute
>are either part of the project already, or existing Fedora users that
>have decided to contribute and know where to go.
>
>
>
Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm
fairly certain you're very wrong.
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use it?
Or do you think that more people want to use it, but we should focus on
those who want to contribute?
Mike
7:31 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
Hi
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to
use
it?
http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users
Or do you think that more people want to use it, but we should focus
on those who want to contribute?
Mike
http://fedoraproject.org is more about contributors and development.
Marketing both the project and the platform is important
regards
Rahul
7:39 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
> Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to
> use it?
http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users
Let's look at the opening line of fedora.redhat.com:
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and
supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new
technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is
not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards
end users?
Mike
7:42 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
Mike MacCana wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Hi
>
>> Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to
>> use it?
>
>
>
>
> http://fedora.redhat.com is currently focussed towards end users
Let's look at the opening line of fedora.redhat.com:
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red Hat and
supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new
technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It
is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused
towards end users?
Mike
It is but it just assumes a different level of expertise than a person
who doesnt know about computers and operating systems. If you are
willing to work on improving that, a prototype design similar to the one
proposed for fedoraproject.org would be useful
regards
Rahul
7:43 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by Red
Hat and
supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new
technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is
not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
So far readers don't know:
- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
- Why it's good
- Where to get it
- Where to get help for it
They do know:
- That its Open Source
- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
- That it is not supported by Red Hat
Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards
end users?
Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com
w/o an act of law. :)
The front page is off limits w/o approval from 7 of 9 rings of red hat's
internal hell.
-sv
7:50 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
seth vidal wrote:
>"The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by
Red Hat and
>supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new
>technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is
>not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
>
>So far readers don't know:
>- That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
>- Why it's good
>- Where to get it
>- Where to get help for it
>
>They do know:
>- That its Open Source
>- That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
>- That it is not supported by Red Hat
>
>Given this, are you sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards
>end users?
>
>
Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of fedora.redhat.com
w/o an act of law. :)
The front page is off limits w/o approval from 7 of 9 rings of red hat's
internal hell.
I figured as much - I have an internal account and doing my own job can
be hard :^).
I propose: getfedora.org or similar for users (based around the idea
that there's a much larger audience among people that don't already run
Linux than that do).
Making a mock up is simple and I hereby volunteer to do so, provided
somebody promises to listen to me and host it somewhere should I manage
to convince them.
And fedoraproject.org for developers.
Mike
7:57 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
I propose: getfedora.org or similar for users (based around the idea
that there's a much larger audience among people that don't already run
Linux than that do).
Making a mock up is simple and I hereby volunteer to do so, provided
somebody promises to listen to me and host it somewhere should I manage
to convince them.
Make a mockup - but I can't promise anything about necessarily
listening.
Don't get another domain, please. It's the last thing we need not the
least of which is b/c it confuses things futher.
-sv
5:54 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
Pretty positive that we can't change the front page of
fedora.redhat.com
w/o an act of law. :)
Naaah, you don't need an act of law. You just need an act of gdk, when he
has the time. ;-)
> "The Fedora Project is an open source project sponsored by
Red Hat and
> supported by the Fedora community. It is also a proving ground for new
> technology that may eventually make its way into Red Hat products. It is
> not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc."
>
> So far readers don't know:
> - That Fedora is a Linux distro, or an Operating System
> - Why it's good
> - Where to get it
> - Where to get help for it
>
> They do know:
> - That its Open Source
> - That stuff in it may end up in RHEL
> - That it is not supported by Red Hat
>
> Given this, are yous sure fedora.redhat.com is currently focused towards
> end users?
I think there's some merit to what Mike says here. We can stand to make
it a little clearer why to use Fedora Core The Operating System.
1. WHY IT'S GOOD. Because the distro itself is basically an alpha of
RHEL, the most stable Linux distro on Earth, and because the universe of
packages around the distro will get bigger and bigger and bigger and
constantly more useful.
2. WHERE TO GET IT. A great big GET IT NOW button.
3. WHERE TO GET HELP FOR IT. A great big COMMUNITY FORUMS link.
So I'm okay with a little rework, if someone's got better wordsmithery
that I can use.
That said:
* Latest Fedora News will stay.
* When the Foundation is established, we'll need to revisit this question
anyway.
* The hard part isn't getting users; it's getting contributors. I think
that the marketing group should focus on the second objective as much as,
if not more than, the first objective.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
9:51 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
1. WHY IT'S GOOD. Because the distro itself is basically an
alpha of
RHEL, the most stable Linux distro on Earth, and because the universe of
packages around the distro will get bigger and bigger and bigger and
constantly more useful.
Careful. The last thing we want, if we actually want any users, is to call
it an alpha. Wade through your average LUG's mailing list some time and
look at all the comments / perceptions of Fedora by non-Fedora users. A
lot won't even try it because they view it as an alpha of RHEL, and not as
what it actually is - a quick-moving, but still bugfixed / qa'ed distro.
later,
chris
8:45 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 06:54 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
* The hard part isn't getting users; it's getting
contributors. I think
that the marketing group should focus on the second objective as much as,
if not more than, the first objective.
Maybe we need to seriously discuss the creation or tasking of developer
relations to some one at this point, and start developing a sane
strategy.
Jack
9:46 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:25 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
>Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute,
I'm
>fairly certain you're very wrong.
>
Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use
it?
Yes, they do.
A bad idea from an internal perspective, maybe, but never from a
community perspective. The more populous we become, the more we'll
inject fear into the RH sales droids. But remember, we're not here
to /compete/ with their sales cuts
http://lwn.net/Articles/83360/ for reference
So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have
a strong marketing arm ready to go.
--
Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/
FUDCon II @ LinuxTag
June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany
http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/
10:22 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:46:24PM +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better
have
a strong marketing arm ready to go.
I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*,
or *promotion*.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
1:37 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 23:22 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 12:46:24PM +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
> So yes, by the time we have the famous Fedora Foundation, we better have
> a strong marketing arm ready to go.
I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be *marketing*,
or *promotion*.
What's the distinction you're trying to make there?
I think of marketing AS promotion so, I'm a bit confused.
-sv
9:32 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, Jun 19, 2005 at 02:37:40AM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> I think we need to strongly consider if this is supposed to be
> *marketing*, or *promotion*.
What's the distinction you're trying to make there?
I think of marketing AS promotion so, I'm a bit confused.
The difference is in focus and scope.
Promotion, we make a bunch of "Get Fedora Now" web buttons and maybe some
balloons and t-shirts, and have some parties and see who shows up.
If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who make
up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or
application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we
do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might
involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is --
and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we
should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 76 degrees Fahrenheit.
11:18 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)mattdm.org> wrote:
If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of
people who make
up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or
application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we
do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might
involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is --
and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we
should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be
more than users.. people who want to contribute. I really don't think
fedora as a distribution is aimed at any particular userbase. I don't
think fedora should make any strong claims to being a system for the
casual users or for server admins or any other "target" group of
users.
-jef
1:19 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)mattdm.org> wrote:
> If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who
make
> up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or
> application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we
> do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might
> involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is --
> and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we
> should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be
more than users.. people who want to contribute. I really don't think
fedora as a distribution is aimed at any particular userbase. I don't
think fedora should make any strong claims to being a system for the
casual users or for server admins or any other "target" group of
users.
Is there a distinction to be made as to Fedora user "Verticals" -- i.e.
categories of users -- and Fedora Marketing/Development participants?
Is it about defining AUDIENCE, again?
-Sam
-jef
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
7:45 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:18 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/19/05, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)mattdm.org> wrote:
> If we're marketing, we start with, okay, there's this set of people who
make
> up a definable demographic of some sort (geographic, or an industry or
> application, or various other ways to slice it) and say "Okay, what can we
> do to make Fedora appeal to the people that make up this market?" That might
> involve promotion in a "language" that speaks to whoever the target is --
> and it also includes things like "if we want to appeal to market XYZ, we
> should make sure Fedora addessess function ABC."
The market for fedora... are people in the community who want to be
more than users.. people who want to contribute.
I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful
products - ie, ones with lots of users.
Most contributors got into Linux as users.
Mike
7:14 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/20/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to
successful
products - ie, ones with lots of users.
I think fedora has lots of users. Should I go get stats as to the
number of completed downloads from the torrent?
Most contributors got into Linux as users.
Which came first the contributor or the
user....
I still don't think I've seen you define which segment of the userbase
you are trying to target...specifically. I am personally wary of
actively encourage novice linux users to use fedora, because of the
rate of change and leading edge nature of the distribution. I'd
rather underpromise than overpromise with any expectation to the
experience novice users are going to have. I do not think fedora is
the best choice for every novice linux users on the planet and I don't
we to see any aggressive campaign to try to accomplish that very large
scale migration.
-jef
3:25 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 08:14 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/20/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> I disagree. And I think more people feel like contributing to successful
> products - ie, ones with lots of users.
I think fedora has lots of users.
Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows.
I still don't think I've seen you define which segment of the
userbase
you are trying to target...specifically.
The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users', for which
Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux
distros, but still requiring some technical skill.
Mik
6:49 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> I think fedora has lots of users.
Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows.
I am absolutely okay with fedora having less users than MacOS and Windows,
Nor do i think Fedora with its rate of change and leading edge focus
is it a good fit for a vast majority of users of those other operating
systems. Talking about fedora in this as a competition for number of
users compared to any other operating system whether it be a linux
distribution or not.. is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power users',
for which
Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux
distros, but still requiring some technical skill.
I think the linux curious have enough information to read on the main
website. I don't think they need aggressive encouragement.
-jef
9:59 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 07:49 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> > I think fedora has lots of users.
>
> Not when compared to say, MacOS, or Windows.
I am absolutely okay with fedora having less users than MacOS and Windows,
Nor do i think Fedora with its rate of change and leading edge focus
is it a good fit for a vast majority of users of those other operating
systems.
Neither do I, so I don't know why you said that.
I was talking about...
> The Linux curious. Typically described Windows 'power
users', for which
> Fedora would be quite appropriate - easier than most other Linux
> distros, but still requiring some technical skill.
I think the linux curious have enough information to read on the main
website. I don't think they need aggressive encouragement.
You think most Linux curious want:
a) an open source project that produces technologies which may be used
by RHEL and aren't supported by RHEL?
b) a Linux distribution that's good?
If it's a, then the main website is inadequate.
Mike
10:30 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
You think most Linux curious want:
I make no claim as to what 'most' linux curious want. And i think
trying to pander to any target group, you run the very real risk of
misleading them and giving them a colored view of things. Or if you
misjudge exactly what the target group wants... driving them away.
As soon as you start trying to lead people by the nose and highlight
exactly the information you think is most interesting to that target
group.. you run the very real risk of de-emphasizing information you
consider poor features or disadvantages. This is not what i want to
see.
I do not want to see people walk into this community with expectations
that are skewed by aggressive focused marketing. I want people to
have a fair impression as to what to expect.
What is bad and what is good about the distro is highly subjective..
and frankly one man's attractive feature is another person's bad
feature. I'd rather avoid the whole issue of trying to highlight the
good features. But If you must ask the very qualitative question
"what is good" then i want to see the question "what is bad" being
answered at the same time. I am very wary of evangelizing fedora as a
distribution for ANY target group to flock to. I'd much rather
underpromise than overpromise. Low expectations brings its own
rewards over time in a way that high expectations do not.
I really don't think fedora's problem right now is making sure we have
an influx of users. I'm pretty confident in the download numbers and
the mirror activity and the fedora-list and fedoraforumindicate the
fedora userbase has reached a critical mass.
a) an open source project that produces technologies which may be used
by RHEL and aren't supported by RHEL?
b) a Linux distribution that's good?
If it's a, then the main website is inadequate.
I'm not arguing that that the website is adequate. But I'm not
thrilled by the idea of aggressive marketting meant to attract new
users by highlighting only the features we think are attractive. I
would MUCH rather have a user read about fedora and feel its not the
right solution for them, then to have them read about fedora and be
convinced its the best thing in the world, then try it out and find
the experience doesn't live up to expectations.
I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential
users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and
desire" I think the website should focus on how to take "action". A
website that tries to inspire interest.. runs the very real risk of
misleading users. A livecd they can try out.. doesn't make promises it
can't live up to.
-jef
12:49 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I really don't think fedora's problem right now is making
sure we have
an influx of users. I'm pretty confident in the download numbers and
the mirror activity and the fedora-list and fedoraforumindicate the
fedora userbase has reached a critical mass.
+1
I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential
users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and
desire" I think the website should focus on how to take "action". A
website that tries to inspire interest.. runs the very real risk of
misleading users. A livecd they can try out.. doesn't make promises it
can't live up to.
+1
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
4:30 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Wed, 2005-06-22 at 23:30 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/22/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> You think most Linux curious want: (rest of sentence chopped)
I make no claim as to what 'most' linux curious want.
I know. That was the start of a question that you answered later on.
And i think
trying to pander to any target group, you run the very real risk of
misleading them and giving them a colored view of things.
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you
will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message
to the universe?
And why is it that nobody else, in the entire history or marketing
theory, has ever discovered this?
Or if you
misjudge exactly what the target group wants... driving them away.
Yeah, but if you misjudge what the untargeted universe wants, you'll
drive them away too. Scattering bombing everyone with generic Fedora is
good messages won't achieve anything. Marketing 101.
I do not want to see people walk into this community with
expectations
that are skewed by aggressive focused marketing. I want people to
have a fair impression as to what to expect.
The fairness of their impression has nothing to do with whether the
message is targeted towards them. It has to do with us being honest with
users, something which I share your views about.
I'd rather avoid the whole issue of trying to highlight the
good features.
Then you'd rather avoid marketing.
But If you must ask the very qualitative question
"what is good" then i want to see the question "what is bad" being
answered at the same time.
Damn straight.
I am very wary of evangelizing fedora as a
distribution for ANY target group to flock to.
The Linux curious will try a Linux distro. Because they want to.
Chances are, with Gentoo's screaming 'watching text scroll by makes me a
Linux expert' zealots and Debian's 'troll angrily and loudly on every
Fedora story on Slashdot' approach, it'll be either Debian or Gentoo.
Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to
Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or
one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are?
I
would MUCH rather have a user read about fedora and feel its not the
right solution for them
Totally agreed about being honest. Look at say, Codeweavers Crossover
marketing. Their honesty about what Crossover can and can't do actually
makes them look better.
I personally think getting a livecd out into the hands of potential
users is the best way forward to generate "attention interest and
desire"
Yep, but they need to be interested enough to get the CD.
I think the website should focus on how to take "action".
Yeah you could call it...getfedora.org! Let them know what the CD (and
the real distro) can do, and what it can't as well.
A
website that tries to inspire interest..
It's in order. I.e., the website gets the user attention to make them
try out the CD.
Mike
9:21 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience
mean you
will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message
to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious
choice for any particular group of people or individual person.
Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum
of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to
market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a
clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true
alternative" in the space where its operating.
Linux distributions are like breeds of dogs. How exactly do you market
one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the
casual dog buyer?
The casual dog buyer, who doesn't really know the maintainence issues
and temperament of each breed. And they only experience with pet
ownership previous was a gerbil. You make a mistake and you pair a
dog with an owner that is a poor match.. and it can end tragically.
Popularity of a breed drives initial interest, but it also leads to a
high rate of abadonment.
http://www.petsandmore.ca/Vbreedinfo.html
I want to make sure we don't herd people to the answers we think they
want, simply because we have a vested interest in this one breed. I'd
rather help people to the linux distribution that works best for them.
If its not fedora.... I am perfectly okay with that. I'd rather see
us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and
making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or
ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great!
Then you'd rather avoid marketing.
There might be a deep truth to that. I'm intimately aware that I might
be a poor fit for this part of the project. If my ideas are contrary
to the momentum and direction of activities, I'll gladly fade into the
background in this part of the overall fedora project effort and let
others play a strongly role.
The Linux curious will try a Linux distro. Because they want to.
Indeed. My issues are more about the tone of the engagement than the
effort to engage.
I'm wary of a goal that is narrowly defined to be "Get people
interested in Fedora"
I would be much happier if the goal was "Get people interested in
trying linux, including Fedora"
Chances are, with Gentoo's screaming 'watching text scroll by makes me a
Linux expert' zealots and Debian's 'troll angrily and loudly on every
Fedora story on Slashdot' approach, it'll be either Debian or Gentoo.
Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to
Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or
one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they are?
This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux
community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this
distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as
good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever." I do not
believe that its approprate to imply that Fedora is superior to Gentoo
or to Debian. I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask
questions and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to
them. Fedora should be the Progressive Car Insurance Company of the
linux distributions. If a linux 'competitor' is a better fit for
you... great... glad to have helped you find a linux solution that
works best for you.
> I think the website should focus on how to take
"action".
Yeah you could call it...getfedora.org! Let them know what the CD (and
the real distro) can do, and what it can't as well.
I have no feelings about yet another domain name. My comments are
directed at the tone and the content of whatever website is going to
be used to interact with potential fedora users.
10:44 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 10:21:36AM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> Then you'd rather avoid marketing.
There might be a deep truth to that. I'm intimately aware that I might
be a poor fit for this part of the project. If my ideas are contrary
to the momentum and direction of activities, I'll gladly fade into the
background in this part of the overall fedora project effort and let
others play a strongly role.
Maybe. On the other hand, I sense a resistance to *marketing* Fedora at all
-- promote the technology and we have, be straighforward about what doesn't
really work, and don't particulary *worry* about *making* Fedora appeal to
anyone. I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I strongly feel that it's
a valid voice and shouldn't just fade into the background.
Indeed. My issues are more about the tone of the engagement than
the
effort to engage. I'm wary of a goal that is narrowly defined to be "Get
people interested in Fedora" I would be much happier if the goal was "Get
people interested in trying linux, including Fedora"
This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people interested in
trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?"
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
10:58 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 11:44:51AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily
exclusive.
That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more targetted-marketing".
:)
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
11:11 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 11:58 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 11:44:51AM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more
targetted-marketing". :)
direct-to-customer marketing?
hey, I know some people who send me email every night about v!agr@,
c1al!5 and home m0.rtg4ge5
maybe I could ask them to help us.
:)
-sv
11:18 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 12:11:06PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> That's "more-targetted marketing", not "more
targetted-marketing". :)
direct-to-customer marketing?
hey, I know some people who send me email every night about v!agr@,
c1al!5 and home m0.rtg4ge5
maybe I could ask them to help us.
:)
Heh. Okay, honest, I'm not just tryin' to throw around buzzwords! I have a
point!
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
12:04 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/24/05, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)mattdm.org> wrote:
This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people
interested in
trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?"
I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
I'm pretty sure i didn't mean to imply my thoughts are mutually
exclusive with taking aim at certain groups. I just want to make sure
the message is thought provoking instead of encouraging impulse
decisions. To sum up my concerns into a simple headlines.
I want to avoid blurbs like:
"Fedora Linux is great! Try it now!"
and i would instead prefer more open ended tone:
"Is Fedora Linux right for you? Find out now!"
Not to nitpick the getfirefox.com example, but i don't think the tone
of the opening paragraph is appropriate for a linux distribution.
<quote>
the wait is over. Firefox empowers you to browse faster, more safely
and more efficiently than with any other browser. Join more than 64
million others and make the switch today — Firefox imports your
Favorites, settings and other information, so you have nothing to
lose.
</quote>
I don't think its appropriate to use the popularity of the
distribution as a primary reason to encourage new users to use it. I
don't think its appropriate to make bold claims as to fedora's
ability to serve a new user better than other choices.
The codeweaver's example is much better in terms of tone. But really..
if there were any other wine based product out there it could say
nearly the same thing. There's nothing in what codeweaver's intro
that even implies there are other choices in the space. I don't think
thats good enough in terms of being upfront at the distribution level.
We know there are other choices, we know those other choices might fit
better for a particular person if the person takes the time to try out
more than just fedora, and I think we need to be honest about that and
make sure the tone of the site re-enforces the idea of informed choice
as the ideal choice.
openoffice.org's marketting pieces have some high points, certainly in
terms of the formats and quality of their press material. The four
page pdf and the flash intro are well done. But their peices still
has a reliance of superlative language that i think is problematic
when applied to the larger issue of linux distribution choice
ubuntu's introduction on the other hand... is strikingly not about the
specific feature of the distribution at all.
http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ . The first few paragraphs are about the
ideals and commitments of the development model. Its a well worded
description of how the project objectives relate to user expectation.
Here's what the page says about desktop users. "Ubuntu is suitable
for both desktop and server use." Suitable... the distribution is
suitable. No effort to promise the best experience..but a promise for
a suitable one. That's an underpromise, and the power of low
expectations at work.
-jef
12:13 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:04:38PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> This is a whole different thing. :) How about "Get people
interested in
> trying Linux, *via* Fedora, because that's what we can do anything about?"
> I don't think this and more targetted marketing are necessarily exclusive.
I'm pretty sure i didn't mean to imply my thoughts are mutually
exclusive with taking aim at certain groups. I just want to make sure
the message is thought provoking instead of encouraging impulse
decisions. To sum up my concerns into a simple headlines.
I want to avoid blurbs like:
"Fedora Linux is great! Try it now!"
and i would instead prefer more open ended tone:
"Is Fedora Linux right for you? Find out now!"
Indeed -- and this actually goes hand-in-hand with actually focusing on what
we want to accomplish with the project -- rather than just the
dropping-leaflets-from-30000-ft approach.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
11:57 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you
> will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message
> to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious
choice for any particular group of people or individual person.
I disagree. There are obvious niches which specific distros suit quite
well (or don't fit at all, as the case may be). If you're wanting to work
with SELinux, you're going to have much more success with Fedora than with
SUSE Professional. If you want to recompile your system from scratch
fortnightly, you're going to be much happier with Gentoo than with Fedora.
And on, and on, and on.
I don't think marketing Fedora should be an
all-your-Linuxen-are-Fedora-or-die misinformation campaign, but I do think
there's a role for and a value to positive marketing of Fedora. I think
I've mentioned it before, but for one example think about the perception
of Fedora amongst J. Random Linux users at your local LUG (assuming you're
a LUGger). If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch
with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora
is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be
about informing without being about misleading....
later,
chris
12:37 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/24/05, Chris Ricker <kaboom(a)oobleck.net> wrote:
I disagree. There are obvious niches which specific distros suit
quite
well (or don't fit at all, as the case may be). If you're wanting to work
with SELinux, you're going to have much more success with Fedora than with
SUSE Professional. If you want to recompile your system from scratch
fortnightly, you're going to be much happier with Gentoo than with Fedora.
And on, and on, and on.
I see your point, and I raise you a point of semantics.
I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of
people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than
3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux
because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. I am wary of
trying to guess as to what people who are looking at Fedora are really
interested in in terms of "leading edge" technology. Example "Wanting
to work with SELinux" is probably not the question the uninformed are
really thinking about... do they even know what SELinux is? Its more
like users who are interested in "security" in a general sense might
get a kick out of Fedora because of the SELinux integration effort.
Do we need to do a better job of describing some of the key features
and technical objectives for Core.. surely. But I don't want to skew
the discussion with pre-conceived ideas as to what the "target"
audience as broad as "linux curious" is interested in.
If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch
with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora
is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be
about informing without being about misleading....
I didn't say it couldn't be.. I just want to be on guard against it.
Here's a challenge for you, can you produce a rough draft of a 4 page
pdf aimed at LUGers, that aims to address specific misconceptions in
the LUG environments you have personally been associated with. Once
we have a working draft to discuss we can get feedback from other
LUGs. something similar to the openoffice 4 page brocure maybe:
http://www.openoffice.org/product/docs/OOoFlyer11s.pdf
-jef
1:42 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 01:37:53PM -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily
labelled group of
people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than
3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux
because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor. I am wary of
I think that's because taking three users and lumping them together is going
about it backwards. Instead, look at three people who *are* lumped together
in some way already. Probably by some better defining factor than "novice
linux users".
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
1:48 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/24/05, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)mattdm.org> wrote:
I think that's because taking three users and lumping them
together is going
about it backwards. Instead, look at three people who *are* lumped together
in some way already. Probably by some better defining factor than "novice
linux users".
I have no suggestions on how to do that effectively. Chris's comments
about LUGers on the other hand are arguable less vague and less
speculative in nature.
-jef
8:43 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Chris Ricker <kaboom(a)oobleck.net> wrote:
I see your point, and I raise you a point of semantics.
I think its very difficult to "know" what an easily labelled group of
people are interested in aggregate. That's my point. Lumping more than
3 novice linux users together and saying they are looking at linux
because of X feature or technology, is a doomed endeavor.
That's the part I disagree with. There are obvious distinguishing factors
between the distros which orient towards end-user desktops. Have a
decision tree, find out what matters to the person, and go.
"Need box set purchasable at your favorite local book store complete with
printed books, and DVDs and CDs"? SUSE Pro is that way.... (and see, I
even managed to avoid snide comments about SUSE's, err, lack of quality
control. Positive information, not negative comparisons! ;-)
"Want to try new NSA-developed security features which potentially prevent
viruses and worms?" Fedora is this way....
...
The point being: there aren't many distros in the space Fedora is in. Of
the ones there are, there's enough distinguishing about them to steer
novice users appropriately (and if there weren't enough distinguishing
them, that to me would argue that some of those distros should become
extinct)....
Its more like users who are interested in "security" in a
general sense
might get a kick out of Fedora because of the SELinux integration
effort.
This is actually a good point, but one I take a bit differently than you.
The biggest distinguisher between Fedora and the other distros in terms of
what they provide to a potential customer in the same space, at least to
me, is technology (there are certainly others, but that's the key one
IMO). Fedora focuses much more on leading the technology and on developing
and integrating cool, useful new features. That's true all over the space,
not just in the security arena. GFS, Xen, free full Java stack, etc. So,
the question is really: how do you market new technology to someone who
has no idea what you're talking about? See below for one approach for one
target group
Here's a challenge for you, can you produce a rough draft of a 4
page
pdf aimed at LUGers, that aims to address specific misconceptions in
the LUG environments you have personally been associated with. Once
we have a working draft to discuss we can get feedback from other
LUGs. something similar to the openoffice 4 page brocure maybe:
http://www.openoffice.org/product/docs/OOoFlyer11s.pdf
And that, to me, would be of little value. I can't think of a time I've
ever seen a flyer distributed at a LUG, other than ones produced by the
LUG itself promoting LUG events like barbecues or installfests (and man,
those mid-90s ALE ones sure did get just a little bit out of hand! ;-)
One thing I see as being more useful for LUGs is pre-packaged presentation
material for speakers. There's a lot of cool technology in Fedora that's
perfect for 90-minute LUG presentations: Xen overview + demo, clustering,
SELinux, LVM, etc. And LUGs usually seem to struggle for monthly
presenters. Something like a talk outline + a few canned slides available
to LUG presenters would help there 'cause preparing talks sucks. I'd
volunteer more if I knew, hey I can go to fedora and get all the slides
and a basic outline already, and then I just have to flesh them out a bit.
Have the little Fedora logo (oh wait a minute, we don't have one yet ;-)
on the slides, pass out live DVDs so people can play along, and let the
technology and the presenter's descriptions of Fedora in the Q&A do the
selling of the tech and the re-educating about Fedora....
later,
chris
10:14 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/25/05, Chris Ricker <kaboom(a)oobleck.net> wrote:
And that, to me, would be of little value. I can't think of a
time I've
ever seen a flyer distributed at a LUG, other than ones produced by the
LUG itself promoting LUG events like barbecues or installfests (and man,
those mid-90s ALE ones sure did get just a little bit out of hand! ;-)
One thing I see as being more useful for LUGs is pre-packaged presentation
material for speakers.
We have to start somewhere.... if you want to start with a draft of a
presentation.. fine.
I just want a draft of something as a starting point that is meant to
address exactly the misinterpretations you see in the specific LUG
populations around you. Create a draft, present the draft for peer
review, include a summary of the specific misinterpreatations you are
trying to address with the draft material.
-jef
9:16 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 12:57 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote:
one example think about the perception
of Fedora amongst J. Random Linux users at your local LUG (assuming you're
a LUGger). If they're like the users at any of the LUGs I keep in touch
with, about 80% of them will have major misconceptions about what Fedora
is or isn't, and that's something marketing can address. Marketing can be
about informing without being about misleading....
Damn good point.
Mike
9:16 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:21 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you
> will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message
> to the universe?
Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious
choice for any particular group of people or individual person.
Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum
of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to
market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a
clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true
alternative" in the space where its operating.
I don't think it's the 'one true alternative either'. I think it's
one
of about three.
End user focused Linux distros are far and few between.
How exactly do you market
one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the
casual dog buyer?
You find out that user's wants and desires, and find a breed of dog that
matches.
Selling everyone German shepherds is a dumb idea. Selling them to people
looking for police dogs makes a great deal more sense.
I'd rather see
us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and
making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or
ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great!
Same here. But I want Fedora to be one of the things they try.
Currently fedora.redhat.com doesn't market Fedora in any way, shape of
form. In fact, it probably does the opposite, by focusing more on what
it isn't than what it is.
> Do you think that technically minded user, who's
nevertheless used to
> Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or
> one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what they
are?
This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux
community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this
distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as
good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever."
Why not? First time down owners require a dog that doesn't mess the
house, or require too much maintenance, or whatever. Marketing a dog
breed that reflects those needs is simple logic.
I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask
questions
That sounds an awful lot like you want to identify a market Jeff ;^)
and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to
them.
Sure - let them know there's other Linux distros. I actually think it'd
be good to encourage our audience to try other distros that reflect
their needs - say, Ubuntu and NLD for Linux newcomers - themselves. And
let them make up their own mind.
But provide the info that makes sure they're aware that Fedora will meet
their needs. That it works, has testing, an isn't a beta. That it's got
a simple install process, a good set of modern graphical config tools,
modern, carefully selected OSS apps, a common look and feel, etc. People
who appreciate such things can then know Fedora provides them.
And hence, the user wins.
Mike
9:45 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sat, 2005-06-25 at 12:16 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
On Fri, 2005-06-24 at 10:21 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On 6/24/05, Mike MacCana <mikem(a)cyber.com.au> wrote:
> > Er, why? Why does targeting (or 'pandering to') an audience mean you
> > will likely mislead them more or less than if you scatter your message
> > to the universe?
>
> Because I don't think fedora or any other distribution is the obvious
> choice for any particular group of people or individual person.
> Firefox, openoffice, codeweavers... these items exist in a near vacuum
> of choice and by their very nature they have a clear directive to
> market towards existing windows users. I'm not sure fedora has such a
> clear directive nor is fedora positioned to be the "one true
> alternative" in the space where its operating.
I don't think it's the 'one true alternative either'. I think it's
one
of about three.
End user focused Linux distros are far and few between.
> How exactly do you market
> one breed of dog compared to another breed of dog successfully to the
> casual dog buyer?
You find out that user's wants and desires, and find a breed of dog that
matches.
Selling everyone German shepherds is a dumb idea. Selling them to people
looking for police dogs makes a great deal more sense.
> I'd rather see
> us help guide the linux courious into asking the right questions and
> making the right choices for themselves. If that means mepis or
> ubuntu or mandrake or knoppix or even fedora... great!
Same here. But I want Fedora to be one of the things they try.
Currently fedora.redhat.com doesn't market Fedora in any way, shape of
form. In fact, it probably does the opposite, by focusing more on what
it isn't than what it is.
> > Do you think that technically minded user, who's nevertheless used to
> > Windows, would be happier with a distro that can probe his monitor, or
> > one that'll ask him for 'modelines', when he doesn't know what
they are?
>
> This is what I am very wary of. I do not believe its in the linux
> community's best interest to draw direct comparisons between this
> distro versus any other. "You're cocker-spaniel is totally not as
> good for a first time dog owner as my golden retriever."
Why not? First time down owners require a dog that doesn't mess the
house, or require too much maintenance, or whatever. Marketing a dog
breed that reflects those needs is simple logic.
> I want to make sure that we focus on having people ask
> questions
That sounds an awful lot like you want to identify a market Jeff ;^)
> and draw their own conclusions about what is valuable to
> them.
Sure - let them know there's other Linux distros. I actually think it'd
be good to encourage our audience to try other distros that reflect
their needs - say, Ubuntu and NLD for Linux newcomers - themselves. And
let them make up their own mind.
But provide the info that makes sure they're aware that Fedora will meet
their needs. That it works, has testing, an isn't a beta. That it's got
a simple install process, a good set of modern graphical config tools,
modern, carefully selected OSS apps, a common look and feel, etc. People
who appreciate such things can then know Fedora provides them.
And hence, the user wins.
Mike
--
Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
I know i will be ostracized for this, but you guys are bantering in here
about crap and nothing is being done.
If you would like to participate in a mambo that I set up, then cool,
hit here: http://fedorasolved.com/fccp
but the rest of this 'mailing list jerk off crap' is a waste of time.
I want to help, and I want to hit it and do it. By the time some
'committee' ok's anything it's already down the road and lost.
then 'net is *NOW*, and you are wasting time with semantics and pissing
contests.
take care...I am unsubscribing....still love you all, heheh. see ya
around, it's a small world.
=G
--
W. Guy Thomas <mrguytx(a)austin.rr.com>
7:47 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Sun, 2005-06-19 at 12:46 +1000, Colin Charles wrote:
On Sat, 2005-06-18 at 22:25 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
> >Based on the questions I get from folks about how to contribute, I'm
> >fairly certain you're very wrong.
> >
> Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to use
> it?
Yes, they do.
!!!
Could you please explain how?
Do you not believe that there are users who don't contribute?
Do you think there are people who contribute but somehow don't use?
Mike
10:44 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 22:47 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
> > >Based on the questions I get from folks about how to
contribute,
I'm
> > >fairly certain you're very wrong.
> > >
> > Really? You think more people want to contribute to Fedora than to
use
> > it?
>
> Yes, they do.
!!!
Could you please explain how?
Do you not believe that there are users who don't contribute?
Yes, because:
a) we didn't have a contributory process
b) they don't know how to contribute
c) they feel powerless without being @redhat.com
d) even when they overcome (c), some twat @redhat.com will show them
that they're powerless
e) etc...
So definitely, we've got a lot of people wanting to contribute, but they
don't know how, or what to do. Then there's the issue of COMMUNICATION.
It just doesn't happen. Well, it's been improving steadily
If joe@redhat was designing cool_new_fubar_app, and told the community
of his intentions, bar@community might find interest in helping code the
app, or support it along the way. A classic new example of how all this
community thing works is how PUP is being developed: intention,
publicity, public CVS, friendly Paul, etc.
An example of this /not/ working is suddenly springing out new features,
etc. and I'm not going to list examples here, no.
Do you think there are people who contribute but somehow don't
use?
That too. People use Windows during the day, and at night, might have 2
hours to work with Fedora checking their mail. They may contribute
packages during that short span of time
Or what about good design folk. They'd use a Mac, but still contribute
to funky Fedora-ness (web, etc.)
And I'm sure there are people contributing in many soft ways not using
Fedora. Heck, my main work machine is dual-booting FreeBSD and Fedora,
because hey ho, day job *requires* FreeBSD. Am I not a fedora
contributor?
--
Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/
FUDCon II @ LinuxTag
June 24-25, 2005 in Karlsruhe, Germany
http://fedoraproject.com/fudcon/
2:34 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
Colin Charles wrote:
a) we didn't have a contributory process
b) they don't know how to contribute
c) they feel powerless without being @redhat.com
d) even when they overcome (c), some twat @redhat.com will show them
that they're powerless
e) etc...
1st post to this list and piggy-backing on the above. A bit of user
experience ;-)
I am a sysadmin by day, look after a few hundred servers running
anything from Windows to Novell, passing by RHEL.
Put me in the technically aware user base.
I use Fedora for everything on the home network, used it from Severn
onwards. Started with RH 5 or 6, cannot recall. I find it difficult to
find some answers to my questions as a user but it's ok, i do find
answers eventually, it's part of my job - like a 2nd nature.
As a user I would like a *central* repository of info - there are too
many domains/websites out there.
As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but
1. I do not have a lot of time on my hands
2. I am not a developper/coder/programmer or whatever you want to call it
3. Don't really know where to start, who to ask, what to do etc.
I am known as a linux advocate within my company, 90% is made out of
developpers, even created a LUG there. Most of these guys have never
heard of Fedora, they still recall the days of RH 6 to 9.
I have a box running Fedora Core on my desk, I show it to them, they
grab some CDs now and then or join the torrent at home.
Sometimes a punter come to me and ask what there is on the market, what
I would recommend. I wish there was a LiveCD to give them, I wish I knew
how to make one but i don't have the skills/time to learn the said skills.
my 2 cents
Thierry
10:20 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:34 +0100, Thierry Sayegh wrote:
As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but
You just did.
User advocates, documenters, marketeers, all sorts have something to
contribute that is outside of code.
Takes all sorts to make the community go 'round.
- Karsten
--
Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41
Red Hat SELinux Guide
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/
11:10 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:20 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 08:34 +0100, Thierry Sayegh wrote:
> As a poweruser, I would like to contribute but
You just did.
User advocates, documenters, marketeers, all sorts have something to
contribute that is outside of code.
Takes all sorts to make the community go 'round.
- Karsten
Don't kill the messenger on this one. Or set me free if that's your
idea.
Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and
NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Ubuntu is the only active community in the Linux world right now. The
amount of documentations, innovation, side projects, users, posters is
remarkable. I think they did it at Red Hat's expense.
If you survey the participants, many came from Red Hat of the past. They
went shopping for another distribution when Red Hat 9 disappeared.
If you come out of denial, you will realize you lost your community of
participants and the project is too confusing you have unwittingly
constructed barriers to entry. Look at the discussion on this list.
Collin comes in with this commanding presence and others argue. Also, by
excluding independents, you will chase them off also and have squat.
Ubuntu has very carefully planned and centralized facilities for support
and a core development team plus several hundred code contributors, bug
submissions and gophers. They've been in existence seven months and have
the largest Linux community. Fedora could do something similar but this
waffling around will not get the job done.
Further, your fixed ideas and know-it -ll attitudes will kill you. You
don't have all the answers, you don't even know the questions. How can
anyone contribute to you?
What Red Hat lost, Ubuntu gained and then some.
I did a study for Sun and prior to the release of the first Ubuntu
product, gave Sun a blueprint for doing a community. They laughed. But,
Mark Shuttleworth implemented it and in five months they shipped 1
million CDs - and that doesn't count downloads.
I personally do not believe we can catch them. But we can look at their
blueprint for a community and regain significant market share at the
expense of Novell and others. Open your minds.
If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and
regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do.
You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your
immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have
experienced elsewhere.
Fedora may have some interested participants, but they are users not
developers and not contributors.
You have too much ground to make up. Don't forget, this is the result of
the CEO telling aspiring Linux desktop users to go with Windows.
I'd start over from scratch, do our own thing and forget the controlling
interest of Red Hat. You need infrastructure and you need to court
people at the LUG level. You should give away CD's, provide schools with
free software including things like Openoffice, etc.
If you don't want to extend yourselves, then you're going to thrash
around and never get anything done - but talk.
11:12 a.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE
Pro and
NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Where are you getting your userbase stats from?
-jef
12:16 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and
> NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
Where are you getting your userbase stats from?
-jef
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my
publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive
suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a
DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various
distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as
Linux Questions.
12:26 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:16 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:12 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Fedora has a significant user base. It's about the same as SUSE Pro and
> > NLD combined. It trails Ubuntu and Debian and derivatives by about 50%.
>
> Where are you getting your userbase stats from?
>
> -jef
>
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my
publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive
suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a
DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various
distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as
Linux Questions.
So you can provide this information to us? Can we get it in any other
form than anecdotally from you?
-sv
12:47 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis,
my
publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive
suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a
DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various
distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as
Linux Questions.
I was hoping for citations that i can get a look at with some raw data
and potentially a summary of the methodology for sampling. I'm very
interested in getting statistically verifable analysis for any usage
numbers for any distribution. I'm especially interested in any
analysis break down of ubuntu's numbers not lumped in with as a debian
aggregate.
The last publicly available data I am aware of that even attempts a
comparison... is the webserver survey of netcraft:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/03/14/fedora_makes_rapid_progress....
I'm more interested in the raw data than the glowing conclusions. In
fact I'm really not thrilled with how fast fedora is growing in that
study of webservers. The implication that fedora web servers are going
leaps and bounds sort of worries me that hosting companies are
choosing fedora without telling customers about the support lifetime.
I really didnt expect fedora usage in the web server space to increase
as fast as it has. There's a lot of room for interpretation of that
data. But sadly its the only comparable raw data with a set sampling
methodology that I am aware of. I am of aware of the distrowatch.com
polling, but even they don't attempt to claim their poll is an
expression of real world userbase stats. At best its "popularity" and
they admit the sampling methodology can easily be manipulated by the
self-selecting participants. Remember linuxquestions.org poll..
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27...
what was the best distro of the year? slackware. Not to knock
slackware or anything. But that result seems to indicated a very
different world order than you are suggesting... and you even site
sampling of linuxquestions.org as a credible source. Sorry, but forum
activity just can't be used for anything more finer grained than
"critical mass" userbase analysis.
Also unfortunately ubuntu shows up as an aggregate with other "debian"
releases so even in the very narrow scope of web servers I still don't
have publicly comparable raw numbers for unbuntu alone. We could very
well lump fedora in with rhel and get equally meaningless results
similiar to lumping all debian derivatives together.
If you have any references to publicly available raw data, I'd
absolutely love to see it.
Even getting accurate stats of downloads is really tough. Because of
mirrored distribution and secondary torrents you have a hard time
knowing how many copies are really floating around out there. At best
you can get a nice lower-bound to know if you are getting a critical
mass of support, but anything beyond that is impossible to do
accurately with download stats.
-jef
12:50 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:47 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> A Sun market study, Canonical Ltd., Debian's web site analysis, my
> publisher - O'Reilly, former Ximian - now Novell people, the executive
> suite of Novell, IBM, a survey of users, classified information from a
> DoD study, results of a series of articles reviewing various
> distributions, Linspire, Xandros, and sampling from Linux forums such as
> Linux Questions.
I was hoping for citations that i can get a look at with some raw data
and potentially a summary of the methodology for sampling. I'm very
interested in getting statistically verifable analysis for any usage
numbers for any distribution. I'm especially interested in any
analysis break down of ubuntu's numbers not lumped in with as a debian
aggregate.
The last publicly available data I am aware of that even attempts a
comparison... is the webserver survey of netcraft:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/03/14/fedora_makes_rapid_progress....
I'm more interested in the raw data than the glowing conclusions. In
fact I'm really not thrilled with how fast fedora is growing in that
study of webservers. The implication that fedora web servers are going
leaps and bounds sort of worries me that hosting companies are
choosing fedora without telling customers about the support lifetime.
I really didnt expect fedora usage in the web server space to increase
as fast as it has. There's a lot of room for interpretation of that
data. But sadly its the only comparable raw data with a set sampling
methodology that I am aware of. I am of aware of the distrowatch.com
polling, but even they don't attempt to claim their poll is an
expression of real world userbase stats. At best its "popularity" and
they admit the sampling methodology can easily be manipulated by the
self-selecting participants. Remember linuxquestions.org poll..
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27...
what was the best distro of the year? slackware. Not to knock
slackware or anything. But that result seems to indicated a very
different world order than you are suggesting... and you even site
sampling of linuxquestions.org as a credible source. Sorry, but forum
activity just can't be used for anything more finer grained than
"critical mass" userbase analysis.
Also unfortunately ubuntu shows up as an aggregate with other "debian"
releases so even in the very narrow scope of web servers I still don't
have publicly comparable raw numbers for unbuntu alone. We could very
well lump fedora in with rhel and get equally meaningless results
similiar to lumping all debian derivatives together.
If you have any references to publicly available raw data, I'd
absolutely love to see it.
Even getting accurate stats of downloads is really tough. Because of
mirrored distribution and secondary torrents you have a hard time
knowing how many copies are really floating around out there. At best
you can get a nice lower-bound to know if you are getting a critical
mass of support, but anything beyond that is impossible to do
accurately with download stats.
-jef
Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004.
12:59 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004.
I remember... which is why im very interested in statistically
credible data that is open for review. I am not interested in the
executive summary conclusions of privately funded studies. I think the
linux community at large (not just the fedora community) deserves the
right to verify the data and the conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure
ubuntu users would enjoy the chance to datamine and draw their own
conclusions. Its called peer review.. its how this whole open
collaboration process is suppose to work.
-jef
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:59 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> Remember that Ubuntu was released in November, 2004.
I remember... which is why im very interested in statistically
credible data that is open for review. I am not interested in the
executive summary conclusions of privately funded studies. I think the
linux community at large (not just the fedora community) deserves the
right to verify the data and the conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure
ubuntu users would enjoy the chance to datamine and draw their own
conclusions. Its called peer review.. its how this whole open
collaboration process is suppose to work.
-jef
That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want
our research studies. The data exists and you can use the same sampling
techniques, interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write
the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do.
I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered
contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I
don't see any way you will accomplish anything. First because you are
not supportable and definitely not coachable.
An old Hindu statement put into modern terms goes something like this:
Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No.
OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An
enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but
he knows it.
You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you
are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to
see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs,
rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything.
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's
working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks.
Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
Go look for yourself.
3:42 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 03:33:32PM -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote:
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community
that's
working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks.
Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
I thought your earlier message was interesting, but the tone a bit
belligerent -- in short, trolling for the kind of responses you got (or
stronger). And now you're pretending to be all surprised.
Honestly, we don't *need* this kind of help.
Go look for yourself.
That's not the way it works; be nice, introduce yourself. Don't assume
you're famous.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
3:54 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community
that's
working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks.
Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
The name calling isn't constructive. I am extremely aware that there
are lessons to be learned from ubuntu. The combination of foresight,
charity and entrepreneurial skill that has come together in Mr.
Shuttleworth is a rare set of traits. I'm sure there are lessons to be
learned from a number of projects. So far I'm not sure you have given
me any new information that i wasn't already thinking about.
I'm sure everyone who considers themselves a contributor to the Fedora
project wishes Ubuntu and other distribution endeavors much success.
I can't speak for anyone else but I believe that that no one
distribution idea is really going to 'win'.. its not even about
'winning'. Its about building a commons of ideas, an ecosystem of
linux solutions, where all sorts of wacky ideas get tried and the good
ones cross-pollinate into the wider ecosystem.
Ubuntu's fresh start on how to approach community is one of those good
ideas. No one is blind to it, we don't have to be beat over the head
and be called jerks to see your points. You have valid points.. but
man, there is very little community in how you present your views
about how to build community. Its deeply ironic really. You are the
best and worst example of what open community dialog can be. In one
breath you wax eloquent about what a better community model could be..
and with the next you berate the rest of us in this conversation for
not knowing anything. This is now how you build a better community.
You do not inspire anyone to listen to your ideas or to give you
authority in setting direction by browbeating or demeaning others for
their ignorance. You are a broken spirit and I'm not sure you have
the patience to mentor, to teach or to lead in a community setting.
-jef
4 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community
that's
working and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts. Jerks.
Reactive, thoughtless jerks living in a pretense of knowledge.
Go look for yourself.
I really don't understand what is wrong with asking for the data so we
can review it. And barring the data being available, I don't see what's
wrong with asking for some background information on the person
communicating the results of the information.
I'm not trying to be harsh or rude. I really just don't see what's so
wrong with asking for this info.
You're presenting some information which runs counter to the experience
I've had. So, I'm trying to get more information from you to reconcile
it. I approach claims that I cannot reconcile right away with suspicion.
That you're unwilling to provide the data increases my suspicion about
the efficacy of your data acquisition methods.
I don't remember calling you names in any of my emails nor do I remember
Jef doing anything like that. Why don't we try to keep this civil?
-sv
7:09 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you
want
our research studies. The data exists
Where? Is it public?
and you can use the same sampling
techniques
Which were? Are those publicly available?
interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write
the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do.
This is off point. Wasn't your point that we reject ideas and
information? I've seen nothing but requests for the information. I
know who you are, and so does Google. And I don't question your
credentials. You don't need them if you have the data.
I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I
considered
contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I
don't see any way you will accomplish anything.
The good news about an open community is that the door swings both
ways. You are free to watch it flame from afar, and then everyone on
this thread will know that you told us so. You will have those
credentials to us.
First because you are
not supportable and definitely not coachable.
I could walk into any forum, except Utopiabuntu I guess, and level
that same compaint. First I need to find one full of people who have
been waiting so long for this, that they have cut to the chase and
can't take anymore vague or (so far) unsibstantiated statements of
purpose or direction.
Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person?
No.
Oh, I think I know this one. It's a trick question. The jerk is the
one who calls an entire list full of people he's never met, spoken to,
or seen a post from jerks - based on a couple of posts he may have
misunderstood?
Or should I scold you for even asking me such a question? How dare you
doubt my knowledge of asses and holes!
OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An
enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but
he knows it.
I know neither where this thread's ass (the data) is or the whole in
the ground (the research techniques). So I can't tell them apart, but
at least I know it. I still feel like there's something to be learned
if we find either.
You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did
because you
are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to
see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs,
rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything.
I saw several requests for the numbers, which I didn't take as
questioning the validity. But I know a bit about Jef and Seth, so I
know they care more about the facts than the conjecture. You have to
have seen the same funded studies we've seen, and you know like we
know that data can be spun.
I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community
that's
working
But not to what extent, and nothing as to why. Is the Sun blueprint
publicly available? If all of this was work for hire, that you cannot
share, what you could easily contribute if you were still interested
is where to begin in sweeping this data up ourselves. Assuming the
best way to build a community is by training everyone to do
everything, instead of capitalizing on a member's given strengths.
and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts.
...and the stats, and the methodology...or a link, or something.
Like I said, I know who you are, and I don't doubt your integrity nor
do I suspect you of shilling for another project, and I would still
love to know what sites/stats/metrics/methodology you are using. I
believe Ubuntu has a thriving community and install base. I'd love to
see that (and any other) project baselined and tracked in a consistent
fashion. I don't do that for a living, so I need help. That what a
community offers, right? That's why we don't tell sysadmins with
Nvidia trouble to go by a book on hacking the kernel before they ask
for help.
I'm not big on my Hindu parables, but I have heard this one "Lead by
example."
--jeremy
8:30 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 20:09 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
On 6/23/05, Tom Adelstein <adelste(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's an interesting and almost compelling statement of why you want
> our research studies. The data exists
Where? Is it public?
> and you can use the same sampling
> techniques
Which were? Are those publicly available?
> interview the same people, sign the same contracts, write
> the whitepapers and sell your services to the same people we do.
This is off point. Wasn't your point that we reject ideas and
information? I've seen nothing but requests for the information. I
know who you are, and so does Google. And I don't question your
credentials. You don't need them if you have the data.
> I'm not here representing Ubuntu or OpenSolaris or anyone. I considered
> contributing to this project. But after sitting back and watching, I
> don't see any way you will accomplish anything.
The good news about an open community is that the door swings both
ways. You are free to watch it flame from afar, and then everyone on
this thread will know that you told us so. You will have those
credentials to us.
>First because you are
> not supportable and definitely not coachable.
I could walk into any forum, except Utopiabuntu I guess, and level
that same compaint. First I need to find one full of people who have
been waiting so long for this, that they have cut to the chase and
can't take anymore vague or (so far) unsibstantiated statements of
purpose or direction.
> Do you know the difference between a jerk and an enlightened person? No.
Oh, I think I know this one. It's a trick question. The jerk is the
one who calls an entire list full of people he's never met, spoken to,
or seen a post from jerks - based on a couple of posts he may have
misunderstood?
Or should I scold you for even asking me such a question? How dare you
doubt my knowledge of asses and holes!
> OK. A jerk doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. An
> enlightened person doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground but
> he knows it.
I know neither where this thread's ass (the data) is or the whole in
the ground (the research techniques). So I can't tell them apart, but
at least I know it. I still feel like there's something to be learned
if we find either.
> You chaps don't know it and it might not matter if you did because you
> are not comfortable in the space of "not knowing" and being willing to
> see what's out there without dragging your conclusions, beliefs,
> rationalizations, excuses and all that mental crap into everything.
I saw several requests for the numbers, which I didn't take as
questioning the validity. But I know a bit about Jef and Seth, so I
know they care more about the facts than the conjecture. You have to
have seen the same funded studies we've seen, and you know like we
know that data can be spun.
> I gave you a very succinct and clear example of a community that's
> working
But not to what extent, and nothing as to why. Is the Sun blueprint
publicly available? If all of this was work for hire, that you cannot
share, what you could easily contribute if you were still interested
is where to begin in sweeping this data up ourselves. Assuming the
best way to build a community is by training everyone to do
everything, instead of capitalizing on a member's given strengths.
>and you ask for my credentials and scatter charts.
...and the stats, and the methodology...or a link, or something.
Like I said, I know who you are, and I don't doubt your integrity nor
do I suspect you of shilling for another project, and I would still
love to know what sites/stats/metrics/methodology you are using. I
believe Ubuntu has a thriving community and install base. I'd love to
see that (and any other) project baselined and tracked in a consistent
fashion. I don't do that for a living, so I need help. That what a
community offers, right? That's why we don't tell sysadmins with
Nvidia trouble to go by a book on hacking the kernel before they ask
for help.
I'm not big on my Hindu parables, but I have heard this one "Lead by
example."
--jeremy
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my goodness, my first day here, but I understand this is a little out of
the ordinary for this list.
one thing I would have to point out is that Ubuntu is about the fastest
branded product on the market since like the 30's or something, I don't
have the stats here...
anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting in
the wind.
Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections to
Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's not a
broad sample, but I believe indicative.
I will start a new thread introducing myself in a few minutes, but I
wanted to comment on this, my first fedora-marketing list reception.
thanks.
G
--
W. Guy Thomas <mrguytx(a)austin.rr.com>
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are twisting
in
the wind.
Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections
to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's
not a broad sample, but I believe indicative.
I don't know how many ways I can say this but it's not a 'defection to
ubuntu'
That's a really bad point of view to get locked into and I'd like to
discourage it.
-sv
8:39 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 21:36 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> anyway, unless we coalesce and find direction then we are
twisting in
> the wind.
> Fedora has a huge user base, but I know personally of many defections
> to Ubuntu in the last few weeks, just from friends of mine, so it's
> not a broad sample, but I believe indicative.
>
I don't know how many ways I can say this but it's not a 'defection to
ubuntu'
That's a really bad point of view to get locked into and I'd like to
discourage it.
-sv
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I agree semantically.
--
W. Guy Thomas <mrguytx(a)austin.rr.com>
11:39 a.m.
New subject: My take on the "rapid rise of Ubuntu"
...which will probably end up blogged at some point soon.
At LinuxTag, I watched Benjamin "Mako" Hill defend Ubuntu against a room
full (and I mean full by the dozens) of angry Debian developers who
believe that a billionaire has hijacked years of their hard work and taken
the credit for it.
Frankly, he didn't do a very good job of this defense. Kind of a tough
defense to mount, actually, since the Ubuntu folks put together a tool
that pulled in Debian patches and inadvertently (one hopes) stripped the
names of the original contributors out of the change logs.
Oops.
"We need the Debian community," he said. "There's ten of us, and
thousands of you. But hey, is a fork really such a bad thing?"
Good luck, Mako.
After the talk, I spoke briefly with Martin Michlmayer, former head of the
Debian project. He was soliciting Fedora folks for our knowledge on "how
to get a release out the door every six months." Not that we're brilliant
at it ourselves or anything, but we manage to get the job done, and get
new stuff in release after release.
There are, without doubt, things that we can learn from Debian/Ubuntu, and
I fully intend for us to do precisely that. But bear in mind, gentlemen,
that there's a great deal that Debian/Ubuntu -- and everyone else -- can
learn from us.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
10:54 p.m.
New subject: My take on the "rapid rise of Ubuntu"
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
Frankly, he didn't do a very good job of this defense. Kind of a
tough
defense to mount, actually, since the Ubuntu folks put together a tool
that pulled in Debian patches and inadvertently (one hopes) stripped the
names of the original contributors out of the change logs.
That tool, hct, doesn't only pull from Debian. It also gladly reads
Fedora/SuSE/gentoo/etc... it can read cvs, as well as from sources/srpms
--
Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/
11:26 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
Heh.
So now I'm catching up on all of the mail from the past week, and it looks
like things got a little snippy. Let me add my $0.02, for what they're
worth:
1. Numbers don't impress me, except in a very general way. Debian and
Ubuntu and Fedora are all doing very well. I'd like to get *some*
accurate numbers -- but only to tell us how well *we* are doing. What do
I want to see? More users, more packagers, more awareness, more
innovation. But I'm *not* interested in "how we're doing versus Ubuntu
today". Having seen and talked with a lot of folks in Debian/Ubuntuland
at LinuxTag, I've come to the conclusion that everyone has their own
problems to solve. I'm interested in solving ours.
2. "Marketing" is perhaps a misnomer here. People think of
"marketing" as
this aggressive, sell-the-sizzle, hit-the-number sort of idea. That's not
what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much
more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they
should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm
not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a
few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of
itself.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
11:46 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:26 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
Heh.
So now I'm catching up on all of the mail from the past week, and it looks
like things got a little snippy. Let me add my $0.02, for what they're
worth:
1. Numbers don't impress me, except in a very general way. Debian and
Ubuntu and Fedora are all doing very well. I'd like to get *some*
accurate numbers -- but only to tell us how well *we* are doing. What do
I want to see? More users, more packagers, more awareness, more
innovation. But I'm *not* interested in "how we're doing versus Ubuntu
today". Having seen and talked with a lot of folks in Debian/Ubuntuland
at LinuxTag, I've come to the conclusion that everyone has their own
problems to solve. I'm interested in solving ours.
this is good
It's useful to keep in mind the strength that comes from this diversity
having to do with the approaches Fedora and Ubuntu, for example, take to
defining their audiences. The free organic building block goes much
further when we focus on doing our chosen vertical(s) exceptionally
well. And we need to focus our energies on the Goliath, non-open
standards, rather than withIN the sandbox.
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation
for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
2. "Marketing" is perhaps a misnomer here. People think of
"marketing" as
this aggressive, sell-the-sizzle, hit-the-number sort of idea. That's not
what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much
more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they
should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm
not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a
few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of
itself.
This is good, too. It's the quality of the network...
-Sam
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
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11:59 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg
apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
noon
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
> for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg
apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
Of course, so careless of me, Seth.
-Sam
-sv
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12:09 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:00 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation
> > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
>
> rpm vs apt?
>
> You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
> while ago.
>
> okay: rpm == dpkg
> apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
>
> just so we're clear.
Of course, so careless of me, Seth.
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum
and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
-sv
12:41 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and
yum
and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
1. An ocean of perception.
2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly
different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't
be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
12:46 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
> But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum
> and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
>
> So what's the big point of differentiation?
1. An ocean of perception.
2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly
different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't
be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come
up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time
talking about goofball standards for menu files.
-sv
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:46 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
>
> > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum
> > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
> >
> > So what's the big point of differentiation?
>
> 1. An ocean of perception.
>
> 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
> camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly
> different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't
> be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
>
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come
up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time
talking about goofball standards for menu files.
Hey, that's someone's ego you got over there in Germany ;-)
-sv
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12:58 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:48 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:46 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
> >
> > > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum
> > > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
> > >
> > > So what's the big point of differentiation?
> >
> > 1. An ocean of perception.
> >
> > 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
> > camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly
> > different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't
> > be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
> >
>
> oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come
> up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
>
> when if we only did gnome, for example, we wouldn't have to waste time
> talking about goofball standards for menu files.
Hey, that's someone's ego you got over there in Germany ;-)
in germany?
The same is true if we were only doing kde.
what're you talking about?
-sv
12:53 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:41 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, seth vidal wrote:
>
> > But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum
> > and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
> >
> > So what's the big point of differentiation?
>
> 1. An ocean of perception.
>
> 2. The fact that this distinction splits the entire universe into two
> camps -- basically for no reason. There's nothing so brilliantly
> different about rpm and/or dpkg that a common packaging solution couldn't
> be devised -- if anyone cared. :)
>
oh you mean like all the wasted effort at freedesktop.org trying to come
up with 'standards' for gnome and kde.
See my disclaimer: "if anyone cared".
Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction
becomes moot as well.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
1:15 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 13:53 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg:
Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that
distinction
becomes moot as well.
I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody need,
I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, but
that are not so many.
Thilo
--
this content is licensed under a Creative Commons license:
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1:19 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 20:15 +0200, Thilo Pfennig wrote:
Am Mittwoch, den 29.06.2005, 13:53 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg:
> Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages, that distinction
> becomes moot as well.
I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody need,
I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras, but
that are not so many.
this is another reason why we need to get moving on the grouping and
classification of packages in extras.
getting started on this early will help as the number of packages grow.
-sv
10:49 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:19 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > Once Extras catches up to Debian in number of packages,
that
distinction
> > becomes moot as well.
>
> I hope it never will. Debian has way too much packages that nobody
need,
> I think. There are some important packages that should be in Extras,
but
> that are not so many.
this is another reason why we need to get moving on the grouping and
classification of packages in extras.
We should loook at Popularity Contest (debian's popcon app) for this
sort of thing
--
Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/
12:42 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:09 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:00 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:59 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation
> > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
> >
> > rpm vs apt?
> >
> > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
> > while ago.
> >
> > okay: rpm == dpkg
> > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
> >
> > just so we're clear.
>
> Of course, so careless of me, Seth.
But I guess my point is that the differences between rpm and deb and yum
and apt is a stone's throw in terms of functionality.
So what's the big point of differentiation?
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more
superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are
supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of
configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the
distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is
vapor yet, but...)
It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be
necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the
conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and
making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt
matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a
difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and
planning and money are naturally involved.
Additionally, adoption into either framework is a kind of lock-in, so
the decision is thoroughly considered. Do I go with Ford or Alfa? Well
the answer depends upon where I get the oil filters and how much they
cost, and can I get them at all -- for my fleet of 500 vans ;-)
-Sam
-sv
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12:57 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a
more
superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have
ever heard of.
There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems
are
supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of
configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the
distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is
vapor yet, but...)
What difference? Red Hat-based distributions use kickstart for mass
deployment and can use yum or up2date for updates.
It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not
be
necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the
conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and
making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt
matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a
difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and
planning and money are naturally involved.
What difference? The only thing I can think of is that ubuntu is the
only deb-based distro with an automated installer.
-sv
12:56 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take
a more
> superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have
ever heard of.
> There is a larger appearance of difference in the way these systems are
> supported...in the way an organization would look at the challenge of
> configuring and updating a large number of systems...in the way the
> distro vendors package these services. (Ubuntu's enterprise offering is
> vapor yet, but...)
What difference? Red Hat-based distributions use kickstart for mass
deployment and can use yum or up2date for updates.
> It is a nominal thing, but the distinction is being made. It may not be
> necessary but it exists. That's my thinking behind. It comes into the
> conversation when organizations are defining their requirements and
> making the Linux adoption decision. I don't actually say it doesnt
> matter, because they are thinking about their resources. There's a
> difference in the way I support Red Hat or Fedora or Ubuntu or JDS and
> planning and money are naturally involved.
What difference? The only thing I can think of is that ubuntu is the
only deb-based distro with an automated installer.
Seth-
Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then
that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't
know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a
different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost
enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone
yet.
-Sam
-sv
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1:08 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
>
Seth-
Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then
that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't
know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a
different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost
enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone
yet.
What?
1. I have sat and had that discussion about enterprise-wide support for
linux. At Duke, with the CIO and Associate Deans of Computing for almost
all the major schools.
2. Who is 'we' in the above sentence: "We make Debian (and now Ubuntu)
almost enterprise-class."
-sv
1:38 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 14:08 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> >
> Seth-
> Respectfully, you don't sit with IT heads and explain all this and then
> that it actually only makes a difference in the process. They don't
> know and they need to know -- or they ask: "RPM or DEB?" It's a
> different perspective. We make Debian (and now Ubuntu) almost
> enterprise-class. It's what Red Hat does, and does better than anyone
> yet.
What?
1. I have sat and had that discussion about enterprise-wide support for
linux. At Duke, with the CIO and Associate Deans of Computing for almost
all the major schools.
2. Who is 'we' in the above sentence: "We make Debian (and now Ubuntu)
almost enterprise-class."
Hiser + Adelstein
-sv
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10:50 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take
a more
> superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have
ever heard of.
Ubuntu
(really)
--
Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/
7:20 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:50 +0800, Colin Charles wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more
> > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
>
> There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have
> ever heard of.
Ubuntu
(really)
They haven't released an enterprise-targeted distro yet.
-sv
3:58 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 08:20 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 11:50 +0800, Colin Charles wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > > The (enterprise, gov't) adoption decision-makers -- who take a more
> > > superficial view -- make a bigger distinction than you or I.
> >
> > There are no enterprise 'labeled' deb-based distributions that I have
> > ever heard of.
>
> Ubuntu
>
> (really)
They haven't released an enterprise-targeted distro yet.
Correct. They are looking at doing so.
-Sam
-sv
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12:17 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
> Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
> for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
rpm vs apt?
You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
while ago.
okay: rpm == dpkg
apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
just so we're clear.
-sv
I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt.
On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with
when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and
Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in
the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use
to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad.
So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus
when promoting Fedora.
Alexander
--
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legal statement: http://www.uni-x.org/legal.html
Fedora Core 2 GNU/Linux on Athlon with kernel 2.6.11-1.35_FC2smp
Serendipity 19:05:51 up 4 days, 1:58, load average: 0.25, 0.26, 0.23
12:21 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
> > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation
> > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
>
> rpm vs apt?
>
> You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
> while ago.
>
> okay: rpm == dpkg
> apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
>
> just so we're clear.
>
> -sv
I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt.
On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with
when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and
Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in
the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use
to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad.
So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus
when promoting Fedora.
I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and
friends good enough that no one needs ever think about the name of the
commands. :)
-sv
8:56 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
> Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
>
> > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation
> > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
> >
> > rpm vs apt?
> >
> > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
> > while ago.
> >
> > okay: rpm == dpkg
> > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
> >
> > just so we're clear.
> >
> > -sv
>
> I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt.
> On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with
> when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and
> Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in
> the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use
> to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats sad.
> So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus
> when promoting Fedora.
I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and
friends
Will pup have a command line version?
The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local
and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV,
weird.
Mike
9:07 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 11:56:47AM +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
Will pup have a command line version?
The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local
and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV,
weird.
alias pup=yum
:)
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 78 degrees Fahrenheit.
9:18 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:56 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:21 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 19:17 +0200, Alexander Dalloz wrote:
> > Am Mi, den 29.06.2005 schrieb seth vidal um 18:59:
> >
> > > > Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
> > > > for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It
is a
> > > > difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people
on
> > > > its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
> > >
> > > rpm vs apt?
> > >
> > > You're kidding right? I thought we had finally put this one to bed a
> > > while ago.
> > >
> > > okay: rpm == dpkg
> > > apt == yum or apt-rpm or whatever.
> > >
> > > just so we're clear.
> > >
> > > -sv
> >
> > I fully agree, Seth. It has ever been incorrect to compare rpm with apt.
> > On the other side it is exactly this comparison people come over with
> > when there is the naming of Red Hat Linux and now for a while Fedora and
> > Debian on the other side. Red Hat as a linux distribution is still in
> > the heads of many, many people (at least I can say that for people I use
> > to speak with here in Germany) as the "rpm dependency hell". Thats
sad.
> > So I think it would be good if we would place yum more into the focus
> > when promoting Fedora.
>
> I genuinely think we should probably make the gui tools like pup and
> friends
Will pup have a command line version?
The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local
and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV,
weird.
yum can do local lists and local installs.
quite frankly for 80% of the user case - if they're using the command
line - they can just use yum.
-sv
9:57 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 22:18 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 11:56 +1000, Mike MacCana wrote:
>
> The current 'rpm for queries and local/remote installs, yum for local
> and remote installs with dependencies' situation is, from a user POV,
> weird.
yum can do local lists and local installs.
Yes, as I said above, yum can do local installs. And I'm aware of the
local listing capability.
quite frankly for 80% of the user case - if they're using the
command
line - they can just use yum.
True. But for those of us who aren't beginners, but who appreciate
simplity and elegance, it's be lovely to ask what package installed a
file with yum or pup. Perhaps yum or pup could also have an option to
restore that file to it's factory defaults (original contents), or other
useful things for us admin folks.
Mike
12:39 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Sam Hiser wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's
no reason to have two packaging standards.
So best of luck to me. :)
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
12:47 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, Sam Hiser wrote:
> Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of differentiation
> for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's
no reason to have two packaging standards.
It's already disappearing underneath the GUI tools.
So best of luck to me. :)
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
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10:52 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 13:39 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
> for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT. It is a
> difference which can carry an adoption. Each suits different people on
> its merits and respective frictions. All's to Good.
Personally? I'd like to make this distinction disappear one day. There's
no reason to have two packaging standards.
So best of luck to me. :)
Autopackage? *grin*
Well, join the freedesktop.org team and start working on packaging
guideleines/standards for something unified
Expect to see a lot of zealots along the way...
--
Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/
8:54 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 12:46 -0400, Sam Hiser wrote:
Keep in mind also that one of the principal points of
differentiation
for distros -- substantial points -- has to do with RPM vs APT.
You either mean rpm and dpkg, or yum and apt, or rpm/yum and dpkg/apt.
Or you're very confused.
Mike
9:24 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:26:38PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of
much
more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they
should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm
not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a
few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of
itself.
I think we need to work on solving this problem:
<https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.htm...
The general case, not necessarily this specific package. I know Warren is
working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should
help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just
ignored without any comment.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
9:35 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matthew Miller wrote:
I think we need to work on solving this problem:
<https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.htm...
The general case, not necessarily this specific package. I know Warren is
working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process, which should
help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't just
ignored without any comment.
This isn't a marketing issue; it's an execution issue for the Fedora
Extras team.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
12:19 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 10:35:18AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> working on a new bugzilla-based package submission process,
which should
> help, but someone needs to make sure that valuable contributions aren't
> just ignored without any comment.
This isn't a marketing issue; it's an execution issue for the Fedora
Extras team.
It may not be a *promotional* issue, like the letter jackets and the pins
and the hats and the balloons, but it *is* a marketing issue. As someone
said earlier, Fedora marketing should be based in honesty. If we want to
market the Fedora project to potential contributors, we *can't* just be
ignoring people after they jump through all sorts of hoops to actually try
to help.
Working to make the project match what the intended audience really needs is
essential. If you're trying to market to "a few thousand knowledgeable
advocates", the *best* thing do to is make their contributions feel valuable
and wanted. This is *far* more powerful than "swag" and other gimmicks.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
12:23 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Matthew Miller wrote:
It may not be a *promotional* issue, like the letter jackets and the
pins
and the hats and the balloons, but it *is* a marketing issue. As someone
said earlier, Fedora marketing should be based in honesty. If we want to
market the Fedora project to potential contributors, we *can't* just be
ignoring people after they jump through all sorts of hoops to actually try
to help.
Working to make the project match what the intended audience really needs is
essential. If you're trying to market to "a few thousand knowledgeable
advocates", the *best* thing do to is make their contributions feel valuable
and wanted. This is *far* more powerful than "swag" and other gimmicks.
Point well taken.
My point, though, is that we *know* it's a problem -- a major problem --
and it's already on the plate of the Extras committee to solve that
problem.
--g
_____________________ ____________________________________________
Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the
Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the
] [ dumb. --mcluhan
11:28 a.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 10:24 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jun 29, 2005 at 12:26:38PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> what I think of when I think about this list of people. I think of much
> more basic stuff: tell people what's good about Fedora, and why they
> should use it, and most importantly, why they should *participate*. I'm
> not interested in having 10 gazillion users; I'm interested in having a
> few thousand knowledgable advocates. The user base will take care of
> itself.
I think we need to work on solving this problem:
<https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.htm...
Matt,
This is coming up in the Fedora Extras Steering Committee and when we
have some more progress on it - be assured it'll be in the minutes that
are posted.
cool?
-sv
12:28 p.m.
New subject: Wow. Welcome back for me. :)
On Thu, Jun 30, 2005 at 12:28:20PM -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> I think we need to work on solving this problem:
> <https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2005-June/msg01007.htm...
This is coming up in the Fedora Extras Steering Committee and when we
have some more progress on it - be assured it'll be in the minutes that
are posted.
cool?
Yes, very. Thanks.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm(a)mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Current office temperature: 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
12:25 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study
and
regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do.
You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your
immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have
experienced elsewhere.
Why should we take your word for any of this?
You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you
provide?
-sv
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this
study and
> regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do.
> You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your
> immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have
> experienced elsewhere.
Why should we take your word for any of this?
Don't. Because I really don't care if you do.
You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you
provide?
If you don't know that, it proves my point as to the lack of information
with which people on this list work.
-sv
12:50 p.m.
New subject: Attention / Interest / Desire / Action, getfedora.org, or why marketing 'the Fedora project' is a bad idea.
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 12:48 -0500, Tom Adelstein wrote:
On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 13:25 -0400, seth vidal wrote:
> > If you want statistics, I can come up with them. I did this study and
> > regardless of what you think of me - I know more about this that you do.
> > You know squat and you can't put a community back together with your
> > immature approach, regardless of how much you think you know and have
> > experienced elsewhere.
>
> Why should we take your word for any of this?
Don't. Because I really don't care if you do.
>
> You're claiming to be an expert on it but what credentials can you
> provide?
If you don't know that, it proves my point as to the lack of information
with which people on this list work.
I wasn't being snide or sarcastic. I thought you had decided to email
this list b/c you wanted to help. I don't like accepting claims about
data w/o seeing the data or at least w/o knowing the background of the
people making the claim. I work in a physics department, they get picky
about that sort of thing. :)
So, no, I don't know who you are but I admit to not knowing everyone.
So do you wanna tell me anymore about yourself and how you got your
data?
thanks,
-sv
6874
days inactive
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days old
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
103 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
-
Alexander Dalloz -
Chris Ricker -
Colin Charles -
Greg DeKoenigsberg -
Hrishikesh Ballal -
Jack Aboutboul -
Jef Spaleta -
Jeremy Hogan -
Karsten Wade -
Matthew Miller -
Mike MacCana -
Rahul Sundaram -
Sam Hiser -
seth vidal -
Thierry -
Thilo Pfennig -
Tom Adelstein -
W. Guy Thomas