4:18 p.m.
On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 01:21:40PM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote:
OK, I have to respond to this one. Rawhide was once a great
distribution
for staying at the leading edge of things; I was an enthusiastic user.
But then developers stopped caring whether it broke, and, when I reported
bugs, I was told that I shouldn't be running Rawhide at all. After a bit
of that, I moved on. So did lots of others, I think.
So now we're going to fix it and the first thing to do is to ... change
the name?
Hi Jonathan. In short, no. :) This is the marketing list, and that's
the first thing around this for the marketing team to do. But this
isn't just a rebranding, and any name change would come _after_ actual
technical changes. The plan involves taking some lessons from our
friends over at openSUSE, and implementing gating, so that packages are
put in side-tags until they pass basic tests (initially, very basic
tests like dependency closure, and then "did this break booting", and
up from there").
The message of a name change is as much for those developers who told
you you shouldn't be running Rawhide at all as it is for users -- this
is something unlike what Rawhide has ever been, even in the days when
it was in better shape overall.
I'd say forget about the name; it's one with some good
history and name
recognition. Instead, rehabilitate it. Show the world that developers
*do* care about whether Rawhide actually works and that they actually
want to see bug reports. Then people might actually start coming back.
All of the above said, I'm cautiously open to this possibility, if if
there's agreement that we can make it work.
P.S. I wrote an article (https://lwn.net/Articles/506831/) about why
I
left Rawhide.
I remember. And I'm pretty sure you remember that I'm quoted. :)
If the project is now actively trying to make Rawhide
usable, I might be interested in doing something about the real steps
that have been taken to make that happen...
More details to come. Although possibly after a quite a large amount of
post-Flock sleep. :)
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
6:08 a.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
Matthew Miller wrote:
This is the marketing list, and that's
the first thing around this for the marketing team to do. But this
isn't just a rebranding, and any name change would come _after_ actual
technical changes.
In that case, if at all possible, don't (change the name), imho. Rawhide
has quite a history and legacy in the project, would be a shame to let it
go easily.
-- Rex
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rex Dieter" <rdieter(a)math.unl.edu>
To: marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2015 4:08:25 AM
Subject: Re: Help us rebrand rawhide
Matthew Miller wrote:
> This is the marketing list, and that's
> the first thing around this for the marketing team to do. But this
> isn't just a rebranding, and any name change would come _after_ actual
> technical changes.
In that case, if at all possible, don't (change the name), imho. Rawhide
has quite a history and legacy in the project, would be a shame to let it
go easily.
+1 I like rawhide
If it must change, Fedora devel makes sense to me.
Jason
-- Rex
--
marketing mailing list
marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
List info or to change your subscription:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
1:46 p.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 06:08:25AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> This is the marketing list, and that's
> the first thing around this for the marketing team to do. But this
> isn't just a rebranding, and any name change would come _after_ actual
> technical changes.
In that case, if at all possible, don't (change the name), imho. Rawhide
has quite a history and legacy in the project, would be a shame to let it
go easily.
Okay, I'm hearing this pretty strongly. :) Let me throw this out,
though:
We'll probably actually implement this by making it run in parallel to
existing Rawhide, so both will exist at the same time for a while. In
fact, Rawhide-as-it-is could continue to exist in parallel forever.
Does that change anything?
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
2:08 p.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
Hi,
just 2 cents from me, even the name for Rawhide comes from a song its still
a piece of leather in his first stage and it will become something else
like shoes or a belt or whatever is made out of leather later. So looking
from that perspective we should find a name, like mokasin. The name should
represent the movement it the leather process. That will not only help in
market this new branch as also Rawhide.
br gnokii
2015-08-17 20:46 GMT+02:00 Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>:
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 06:08:25AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > This is the marketing list, and that's
> > the first thing around this for the marketing team to do. But this
> > isn't just a rebranding, and any name change would come _after_ actual
> > technical changes.
> In that case, if at all possible, don't (change the name), imho. Rawhide
> has quite a history and legacy in the project, would be a shame to let it
> go easily.
Okay, I'm hearing this pretty strongly. :) Let me throw this out,
though:
We'll probably actually implement this by making it run in parallel to
existing Rawhide, so both will exist at the same time for a while. In
fact, Rawhide-as-it-is could continue to exist in parallel forever.
Does that change anything?
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
--
marketing mailing list
marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
List info or to change your subscription:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
--
make me rich, buy my Inkscape book http://is.gd/yq5OD0 ;)
3:33 p.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
Could you give a bit more context?
Eg
What is the point of having two? The respective main purpose of each?
If theres
- rawhide as it has been
- less raw rawhide
- stable release
Who is using each and why? What is the story behind each?
~m
On August 17, 2015 2:46:38 PM EDT, Matthew Miller <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 06:08:25AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > This is the marketing list, and that's
> > the first thing around this for the marketing team to do. But this
> > isn't just a rebranding, and any name change would come _after_
actual
> > technical changes.
> In that case, if at all possible, don't (change the name), imho.
Rawhide
> has quite a history and legacy in the project, would be a shame to
let it
> go easily.
Okay, I'm hearing this pretty strongly. :) Let me throw this out,
though:
We'll probably actually implement this by making it run in parallel to
existing Rawhide, so both will exist at the same time for a while. In
fact, Rawhide-as-it-is could continue to exist in parallel forever.
Does that change anything?
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
--
marketing mailing list
marketing(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
List info or to change your subscription:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
4:51 p.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Miller" <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
To: "Jonathan Corbet" <corbet(a)lwn.net>
> I'd say forget about the name; it's one with some good
history and name
> recognition. Instead, rehabilitate it. Show the world that developers
> *do* care about whether Rawhide actually works and that they actually
> want to see bug reports. Then people might actually start coming back.
All of the above said, I'm cautiously open to this possibility, if if
there's agreement that we can make it work.
I'm +1 to this vs. finding a new name. Returning Rawhide to its "former
glory"
is much more interesting than picking a new name and trying to explain that
to users and all the work that goes with that. (Both are going to be work,
but I prefer the work of "let's fix Rawhide and tell that story to the
world,"
over "let's fix Rawhide and rename it."
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier | Community Team, OSAS
jzb(a)redhat.com | http://community.redhat.com/
Twitter: @jzb | http://dissociatedpress.net/
3:07 p.m.
New subject: Help us rebrand rawhide
On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 05:51:27PM -0400, Joe Brockmeier wrote:
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew Miller" <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
> To: "Jonathan Corbet" <corbet(a)lwn.net>
> > I'd say forget about the name; it's one with some good history and
name
> > recognition. Instead, rehabilitate it. Show the world that developers
> > *do* care about whether Rawhide actually works and that they actually
> > want to see bug reports. Then people might actually start coming back.
>
> All of the above said, I'm cautiously open to this possibility, if if
> there's agreement that we can make it work.
I'm +1 to this vs. finding a new name. Returning Rawhide to its "former
glory"
is much more interesting than picking a new name and trying to explain that
to users and all the work that goes with that. (Both are going to be work,
but I prefer the work of "let's fix Rawhide and tell that story to the
world,"
over "let's fix Rawhide and rename it."
+1, and this is my favorite reasoning so far. In the same way that
we've spent several years rehabilitating Fedora from:
* bleeding edge -> cutting edge without the blood
* constantly breaking -> rarely breaking
* don't bother, just reinstall N+1 -> upgrade works pretty darn well, mostly
We should also consider this investment in rehabilitating Rawhide.
People know the name, let's not take away the name recognition (and
the value of rehabilitation stories).
--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com
3177
days inactive
3179
days old
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
7 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Jason Brooks -
Joe Brockmeier -
Matthew Miller -
Máirín Duffy -
Paul W. Frields -
Rex Dieter -
S.Kemter