Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
On 9/20/18 2:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need to.
Have a Great Day!
Pat (tablepc)
On 9/20/18 1:01 PM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need to.
There is nothing stopping you from making physical DVDs from the install images that will still be created as ISO files. And you are still welcome to file bugs if they don't work. The request is just to remove the blocking requirement to test them.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:01:40PM -0400, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
I maintain a group of PCs. I like to always leave a copy of the install media with each PC in case it's needed. DVDs are very much cheaper than thumb drives. Please don't make me spend my budget when there is no need to.
That's a valid use case, but 4GB USB drives are about $3 in quantities of 10. The cost in time and effort -- and potential release delay -- of testing this seems higher than that to me. Since this is important to you, are you able to help with this test case every release cycle?
Matthew Miller composed on 2018-09-20 14:16 (UTC-0400):
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
FWIW, context, and acknowledging release criteria is not same thing as purging functionality:
1-a non-zero number of PCs remaining in service here cannot boot from USB (actual quantity impractical to ascertain among the large total number)
2-all (probably) PCs in service here have working OM drives (some have floppy drives, among which one booted from less than a month ago)
3-OM are cheap and easy to buy in required capacities; USB are expensive both in purchase cost and space waste
4-OM have plenty room to write a legible content catalog, USB the opposite
5-OM are physically easy to library, USB the opposite (disparate shapes and sizes, with no purpose-made storage containers)
6-I bought two 5.25" DVD writers since the first of this month
7-I have yet to install any OS from USB media
Newer does not equate to better. IOW, USB media is a considerable PITA compared to OM.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:17 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification:
http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
Speaking for I believe most of the QA team: "We'd be happy to". Testing optical boot is a major PITA. The decision is not ours, though, but I assume it belongs to the groups owning the media currently blocking optical boot. Which is Spins SIG for Everything netinst and Workstation WG for Workstation Live [1] (to be clear, nothing else is currently covered by that criterion, just those two images).
One more thing, Matthew, are you proposing we drop this for F30, or immediately for F29?
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/29/ReleaseBlocking
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 02:23:24PM +0200, Kamil Paral wrote:
Speaking for I believe most of the QA team: "We'd be happy to". Testing optical boot is a major PITA. The decision is not ours, though, but I assume it belongs to the groups owning the media currently blocking optical boot. Which is Spins SIG for Everything netinst and Workstation WG for Workstation Live [1] (to be clear, nothing else is currently covered by that criterion, just those two images).
One more thing, Matthew, are you proposing we drop this for F30, or immediately for F29?
Immediately for F29, because realistically if it comes down to this as the only issue, I will advocate very passionately for releasing anyway.
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 14:16 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
So we had a long and interesting discussion of this, then...kinda lost it in the f29 release rush (and because I suck). Matt, do you want to take a look at how the discussion came out and make a revised (or, if you think it best, just...restated) proposal that we can move forward with? Thanks!
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 03:20:10PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 14:16 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
So we had a long and interesting discussion of this, then...kinda lost it in the f29 release rush (and because I suck). Matt, do you want to take a look at how the discussion came out and make a revised (or, if you think it best, just...restated) proposal that we can move forward with? Thanks!
Yes. In the midst of a home move, so I'll try to get to this ... soonish. If I don't, and you remember before I do, pleaes remind me :)
On Sun, 2018-11-18 at 11:15 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 03:20:10PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 14:16 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:49:20PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
More seriously: I don't think there are any systems in the audiences targeted by our release-blocking deliverables which are not better served by booting from USB media.
So we had a long and interesting discussion of this, then...kinda lost it in the f29 release rush (and because I suck). Matt, do you want to take a look at how the discussion came out and make a revised (or, if you think it best, just...restated) proposal that we can move forward with? Thanks!
Yes. In the midst of a home move, so I'll try to get to this ... soonish. If I don't, and you remember before I do, pleaes remind me :)
Ahoy Matt, this is your reminder :)
On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:02:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
Yes. In the midst of a home move, so I'll try to get to this ... soonish. If I don't, and you remember before I do, pleaes remind me :)
Ahoy Matt, this is your reminder :)
After I get through all these flock talks! :)
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk in years.
Thanks, Richard
I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful someday.
I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box
El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw hobbes1069@gmail.com escribió:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk in years.
Thanks, Richard _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful someday. I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box
So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from optical media?
El jue., 20 sept. 2018 20:26, Richard Shaw <[1]hobbes1069@gmail.com> escribió:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM Matthew Miller <[2]mattdm@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Justification: [3]http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables -hes-has-since-2002-for-another-year/Ouch, that stings just a little :) But yeah, I have burned an install disk in years. Thanks, Richard
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On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:06 PM Fred Smith fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:42:13PM +0200, Julen Landa Alustiza wrote:
I keep an optical driver in a box under the desk, it might be useful someday. I haven't used it for years. So yeah, it's time to clean the box
So, does this mean the images can can no longer be made to boot from optical media?
Please read the whole thread. This has been addressed multiple times already. No one it taking away your ability to burn an iso, it is simply removing the TESTING as a blocker for release.
Thanks, Richard
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion
-- Chris Murphy _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks@alldigital.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Rick Stevens ricks@alldigital.com wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
These systems need an isohybrid image written to a USB stick, correct? Or you mean literally booting off physical optical media?
There's no plan to drop isohybrid for creating the images.
On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media. It's just a suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media not booting will not block the release.
What system doesn't boot off USB now? What do you mean by DVD emulation over USB? That still sounds like not physical optical media.
On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media. It's just a suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media not booting will not block the release.
So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.
What system doesn't boot off USB now? What do you mean by DVD emulation over USB? That still sounds like not physical optical media.
I manage several data centers with some hundreds of servers. Granted, the vast majority of them run CentOS, but some do run Fedora. And, as Fedora goes, eventually so goes CentOS.
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Now, perhaps if I say, "I can't install newer software on them because they can't boot that media," perhaps they'd relax the purse strings. Not bloody likely, but perhaps. Changes such as this to the infrastructure can have repercussions to people like myself that may not be apparent to those not in my position. Optical media is still necessary for me at this time.
I'm just putting in my $.02, that's all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks@alldigital.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - What's small, yellow and very, VERY dangerous? The root canary! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
PXE boot is so nice. It has been my primary install method for years except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port. Set up a kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.
On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
PXE boot is so nice. It has been my primary install method for years except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port. Set up a kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.
I remember doing that. Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10? I did it, and am happy I am not anymore.
This is getting off-topic, so I changed the subject. If we continue this discussion much more, it should migrate to the users list.
On 9/20/18 1:57 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
PXE boot is so nice. It has been my primary install method for years except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port. Set up a kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.
I remember doing that. Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10? I did it, and am happy I am not anymore.
That was a long time ago, I would suggest looking at it again. I do both UEFI and legacy installs this way. How do you do bulk installs or do you just do them individually?
On 9/20/18 5:02 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
This is getting off-topic, so I changed the subject. If we continue this discussion much more, it should migrate to the users list.
On 9/20/18 1:57 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:53 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 1:48 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
PXE boot is so nice. It has been my primary install method for years except for annoying laptops that lack an ethernet port. Set up a kickstart file and you have a fast, consistent, and hands-off install.
I remember doing that. Was it Centos 4 and Fedora 10? I did it, and am happy I am not anymore.
That was a long time ago, I would suggest looking at it again. I do both UEFI and legacy installs this way. How do you do bulk installs or do you just do them individually?
That is the thing. I am really out of the bulk install work. What little I do these days is for armv7, and right now, for Centos7 and Fedora-whatever, it is dd the image to your boot media, install boot media and go.
Back then I had a dozen systems I was managing. I was able to replace them all with armv7 and save a bunch on the electric bill. First with RedSleeve6 and Fedora 20. Now with Centos7 and current Fedora.
And fewer systems as well.
Perhaps when I retire, I will go back to it, redevelop the skillset and market myself as a datacenter support being.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special forwarding on the router. All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 and vmlinuz/initrd images.
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
You've been missing out. I love being able to boot today's rawhide without waiting for any media to burn.
On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special forwarding on the router. All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 and vmlinuz/initrd images.
Oh yes. DHCP option. Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
You've been missing out. I love being able to boot today's rawhide without waiting for any media to burn.
When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 05:13:42PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 5:05 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:48:25PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:34 PM, Anderson, Charles R wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
PXE boot???? Set up a PXE server? And that has to be on the local subnet or you have to set up forwarding on your router? YIKES!
No it does not have to be on the same subnet, nor does it need any special forwarding on the router. All you need is a couple DHCP options set on your DHCP server and a TFTP server anywhere on your network to hold the pxelinux.0 and vmlinuz/initrd images.
Oh yes. DHCP option. Shows how long ago I did it and forgot this. My bad.
But then I have avoided PXE boot for a decade or more for the above reasons.
You've been missing out. I love being able to boot today's rawhide without waiting for any media to burn.
When I get an affordable armv8 board, I will revisit this.
There is also iPXE which can boot over the Internet from a CD-ROM:
And this, but I'm not sure it is being updated anymore:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:34 PM Anderson, Charles R cra@wpi.edu wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 08:29:24PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Some of these beasties are of, well, "older" vintage and are unable to boot USB media natively. They can boot some USB-based and most IDE-based CD/DVD drives. I'd love to replace them with newer systems but am unable to unless they actually die an ugly and permanent death. I have to justify the cost and replacing them "just because they're old" doesn't fly with our cost accountants. I'm stuck with them.
Do they not support PXE booting? If not, can you boot a CD that contains a PXE boot loader?
Neat idea. Good chance the network is faster than optical media.
On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media. It's just a suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media not booting will not block the release.
So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.
Fedora is not currently released on optical media. There will be still be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media. And if you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely get fixed quickly.
On 9/20/18 4:41 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 1:29 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:59 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
This isn't dropping the ability to use optical media. It's just a suggestion to drop the release criteria that a physical optical media not booting will not block the release.
So there is a potential that the software will be released, but not on optical media. That may cause myself and others like me some grief.
Fedora is not currently released on optical media. There will be still be release ISO files that you can burn to your physical media. And if you want to test them, any bugs that turn up will most likely get fixed quickly.
That is what I meant about installing from CD. I take the ISO image and burn it to CD. If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I can work with it.
On 9/20/18 1:50 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
That is what I meant about installing from CD. I take the ISO image and burn it to CD. If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I can work with it.
This is only about testing, no changes to the release artifacts in any way. You will still be able to do whatever you currently do.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
That is what I meant about installing from CD. I take the ISO image and burn it to CD. If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I can work with it.
The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD. You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no problem. And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway, because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster than optical media install.
On 9/20/18 7:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
That is what I meant about installing from CD. I take the ISO image and burn it to CD. If that is what is proposed to still be included, then I can work with it.
The size of the Workstation live ISO exceeds what will fit on a CD. You can burn the Workstation netinstall ISO to a CD, that'll fit no problem.
Somewhere is this thread, this is what I said I do. I burn the netinstall iso to CD...
And you're almost certainly better off doing that anyway, because all the packages on the live are quickly stale, so you're gonna end up downloading ~1.5+ GB in updates. You might as well download and install ~1.5GB of current packages, which is what netinstall does. Set up your own local mirror and it'll be way faster than optical media install.
back when I would have a dozen systems with the same OS, I maintained a local repo. Recently I have not. I should probably set one up for C7-armhfp...
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?
Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long term backups too.
Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.
Have a Great Day!
Pat (tablepc)
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?
So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers that don't boot from USB?
Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/ to enable people who care about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using Fedora infrastructure.
Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long term backups too.
This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's *likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.
On 9/20/18 1:35 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:23:03PM -0400, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?
So, again, I'm looking at the target audiences for our release-blocking deliverables. 5 years seems like a perfectly reasonable age limit for the audiences for those. Maybe even 3 years. Do you have 5 year old computers that don't boot from USB?
Now, it's totally within the mission of Fedora https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/ to enable people who care about targetting older hardware to develop, produce, and support solutions for that. That would be super, super awesome. If you're interested in finding other people with similar needs and want to build that, I'm totally in favor of doing that as part of Fedora, with Fedora resources, using Fedora infrastructure.
Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long term backups too.
This isn't about whether DVD writing works, though. In fact, it's not necessarily about dropping support for DVD installation either -- it's *likely* that it will just keep working, and even if we ship a release which you discover after the fact doesn't work for you, there's nothing blocking producing a fix. We just wouldn't slip the release for it.
Ok, so ISO images would still be produced and could be burned to OM for installation. There just isn't any guarantee (at release) that the OM would actually boot and one could squawk it if it didn't and not be poo-poo'd about it. I might be able to survive that, assuming that the fixes for the unbootability (is that a word?) were timely.
I'm sorry for opening such a storm of messages here. I'm just a bit sensitive to this as I'm the one that generally gets poked with the sharp, pointy stick when the defecation hits the impeller around here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks@alldigital.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - Never eat anything larger than your head - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:24:56PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
Ok, so ISO images would still be produced and could be burned to OM for installation. There just isn't any guarantee (at release) that the OM would actually boot and one could squawk it if it didn't and not be poo-poo'd about it. I might be able to survive that, assuming that the fixes for the unbootability (is that a word?) were timely.
Yep, that's pretty much it.
I'm sorry for opening such a storm of messages here. I'm just a bit sensitive to this as I'm the one that generally gets poked with the sharp, pointy stick when the defecation hits the impeller around here.
Heh, thanks. I can relate :)
On 9/20/18 3:23 PM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?
Use PXE. I bet your systems support it. Setup Cobbler and never touch physical media again.
Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long term backups too.
Yikes. I would suggest you invest in other options.
Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to them.
It's time to move on. Technology eventually advances. You have options. There is no doomsday scenario here. :)
On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to them.
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies, it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage. What I would recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one of which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.
On 9/20/18 4:45 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/20/18 1:40 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I'm not sure what FUD you've read to believe that, but flash drives from reputable brands are very hard and last more than a few times writing to them.
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies, it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage. What I would recommend is multiple copies of the data in multiple places, one of which could certainly be flash drives for ease of access.
We are drifting here. I like DVD for backup because there are good physical storage options for DVD that is lacking for USB. Plus they are cheaper for each backup. But it is drifting and it has been pointed out that this is NOT about dropping operational use of optical media. WAY too early in storage evolution to discuss that!
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb samuel@sieb.net wrote:
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies, it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb samuel@sieb.net wrote:
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies, it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
FWIW, I think I must be very lucky. I have just checked several of my TDK DVD-RW disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. I'd forgotten all about them until reading this. They've been sitting on the top of a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of between the 60's and 80's and high humidity. (I fight with my wife about the A/C in the summer).
All of them read just fine. Which is good since I'd been looking for the photos of one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb samuel@sieb.net wrote:
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies, it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
FWIW, I think I must be very lucky. I have just checked several of my TDK DVD-RW disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. I'd forgotten all about them until reading this. They've been sitting on the top of a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of between the 60's and 80's and high humidity. (I fight with my wife about the A/C in the summer).
All of them read just fine. Which is good since I'd been looking for the photos of one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb samuel@sieb.net wrote:
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies, it's gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not recommend a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
FWIW, I think I must be very lucky. I have just checked several of my TDK DVD-RW disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. I'd forgotten all about them until reading this. They've been sitting on the top of a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of between the 60's and 80's and high humidity. (I fight with my wife about the A/C in the summer).
All of them read just fine. Which is good since I'd been looking for the photos of one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your upper end estimate) I don't think they are that important. I'll check them again in another 15 years. If I have a DVD drive at that time. :-)
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, what would prevent the success of an installation?
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 21:54 Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com wrote:
On 9/21/18 9:47 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:08 PM Ed Greshko ed.greshko@greshko.com
wrote:
On 9/21/18 7:42 AM, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:47 PM Samuel Sieb samuel@sieb.net wrote:
That is true, but there is also a reasonable chance or losing them, breaking them, or other random failures. When a flash drive dies,
it's
gone, very difficult to recover if even possible. I would not
recommend
a flash drive (or DVD) alone for long-term storage.
All CD and DVD consumer burnable (R or RW) are not suitable for long term storage. The dyes used are not gonna very long, maybe a few years. If they're kept in the dark at stable temperature, I'd be surprised if they lasted 5 years. Bluray is a different story, and with proper storage shows some promise of being readable for quite a while, but you're gonna have to put a drive, cables, and a computer into cold storage along with the discs so... good luck.
FWIW, I think I must be very lucky. I have just checked several of my
TDK DVD-RW
disks that were written between 2003 and 2005. I'd forgotten all about them until reading this. They've been sitting
on the top of
a cabinet that is exposed to indirect sunlight and temp ranges of between the 60's and 80's and high humidity. (I fight with my wife
about the A/C in
the summer).
All of them read just fine. Which is good since I'd been looking for
the photos of
one of our departed cats which were "lost" due to an HD failure.
Yes, lucky. Make copies, quick!
Well, since I did forget about them and it has been 15 years (3X your upper end estimate) I don't think they are that important. I'll check them again in another 15 years. If I have a DVD drive at that time. :-)
-- Cardinal Rule of Presentations: "Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, then tell them what you told them."
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Harold Dost composed on 2018-09-20 22:35 (UTC-0400):
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final.
+1
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost harolddost@gmail.com wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, what would prevent the success of an installation?
We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly - pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.
But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing. But if we're gonna do that I think it should be netinstall. That has rescue capability live does not, and it's smaller so it fits the CD and DVD use case broadly, unlike live which is DVD only due to size. Since all the netinstalls are in effect based on boot.iso and are all pretty much identical (branding and default partitioning are differentiated), as long as boot.iso can successfully boot by optical drive, all the editions can have a rescue+installer that'll boot them.
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:17 AM Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost harolddost@gmail.com wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another
blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, what would prevent the success of an installation?
We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
- pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.
But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing.
There is one difference. Those criteria that we block on yet don't test (at all or in full extent) in the QA team are usually those that are too impractical to test centrally. Ensuring that all important printer drivers work falls into that category, similarly to ensuring all important graphics cards work, etc. There's no way without community involvement we could ever cover everything important.
Optical booting is a different story, that can be tested, and quite easily (making sure it works on one system usually means it works everywhere - although there have been exceptions to the rule in the past), it just takes annoyingly long. And unlike broken printers or to a certain extent broken graphical drivers, we can't fix this with an update, we'd have to create a new compose (and make another full round of testing), which we never do. So although I'd love to get rid of optical media testing, if we keep it in the criteria, I'm not comfortable with ignoring it inside the QA team and I believe the test coverage for it would still need to be considered mandatory in that case.
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:33 AM Kamil Paral kparal@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:17 AM Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost harolddost@gmail.com wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, what would prevent the success of an installation?
We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
- pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.
But yeah it does sound reasonable to have the same "if it's known to be broken" then block, similar to the request for printing.
There is one difference. Those criteria that we block on yet don't test (at all or in full extent) in the QA team are usually those that are too impractical to test centrally. Ensuring that all important printer drivers work falls into that category, similarly to ensuring all important graphics cards work, etc. There's no way without community involvement we could ever cover everything important.
Optical booting is a different story, that can be tested, and quite easily (making sure it works on one system usually means it works everywhere - although there have been exceptions to the rule in the past), it just takes annoyingly long. And unlike broken printers or to a certain extent broken graphical drivers, we can't fix this with an update, we'd have to create a new compose (and make another full round of testing), which we never do. So although I'd love to get rid of optical media testing, if we keep it in the criteria, I'm not comfortable with ignoring it inside the QA team and I believe the test coverage for it would still need to be considered mandatory in that case.
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+1
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:09 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:36 PM Harold Dost harolddost@gmail.com wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome? Similar to another blocker that was being proposed, maybe it's not something that _must_ be tested, but if it's known to be broken that it should block a final. Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the image is over the capacity of a DVD, what would prevent the success of an installation?
We did have a bug a couple years ago or so, where the ISO written to USB booted fine, but when burned to optical media wouldn't boot anything including VM. It was a bootloader bug, if I recall correctly
- pretty sure it hit BIOS firmware only, not UEFI.
IIRC it would even boot when attached as a 'virtual' disc to a VM - it was only when actually written to physical spinning discs that it failed to work. That was a fun bug.
For the record:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1141496 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1148087
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped in and run the test before.
On 9/21/18 1:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped in and run the test before.
My challenge is a physical system to test on. I can do armv7 testing; I have 3 Cubies here on my desk for various tests, and it is easy to swap out media.
But x86_64 testing? I only have my 2 Lenovo x120e systems. I am going to have to test k3b writing again and if the bug is not fixed (it is in F29), implement Ed's workaround already as that is the only thing I need my old F24 system for. And it is OK for testing as the fan is dying.
I have to hit ebay up for a Lenovo x141. So perhaps mid-next month I can do some netinstall testing from OM.
Oh, yesterday I found out that my Juniper firewall uses some old TLS crypto that FF on F28 does not like. So I either have to upgrade its firmware, turn off TLS, or disable this FF check. ARGH! Shows how long it has been since I have had to log in and check something on it. That SSG5 just runs.
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:30 PM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped in and run the test before. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
I want to make sure that I'm on the same page.
Based on:
Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release criteria is this:
"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when written to optical media of an appropriate size" Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
Would it be calculable based on the ISO size whether it would author correctly (only in terms of size) with out needing to burn it to a real disk? Then burning to a disk would not be necessary, but prevents the image from becoming overly bloated.
On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 13:52 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:30 PM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped in and run the test before. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
I want to make sure that I'm on the same page.
Based on:
Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release criteria is this: "Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when written to optical media of an appropriate size" Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
Would it be calculable based on the ISO size whether it would author correctly (only in terms of size) with out needing to burn it to a real disk? Then burning to a disk would not be necessary, but prevents the image from becoming overly bloated.
No. See the other subthread where a couple of bugs from the Fedora 21 era showed that it's possible for ISO files to boot fine from USB, or when attached to a VM, but not boot when written to an actual optical disc.
We already have a size check test which is automated, but just ensuring the ISO file is not larger than a physical CD or DVD is not sufficient to be sure it actually boots.
On 9/21/18 1:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped in and run the test before.
Well, I know I'm an exception, I only test workstation live, I don't test every drop, and I know that no one is requiring me to, but I actually spend money on DVD media to help out with testing. Yes, I know that someday DVDs will go away and I'll have to figure out this network install thing, but for right now I use them because it's what I'm comfortable doing.
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Have a Great Day!
Pat (tablepc)
On Fri, 2018-09-21 at 14:56 -0400, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
On 9/21/18 1:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 22:35 -0400, Harold Dost wrote:
Is having this as a test criteria *that* burdensome?
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
If people outside of the RH team ever actually ran this test, I'd be more in favour of keeping it, but I don't think any of the people speaking up about how vital this is to them have ever actually chipped in and run the test before.
Well, I know I'm an exception, I only test workstation live, I don't test every drop, and I know that no one is requiring me to, but I actually spend money on DVD media to help out with testing. Yes, I know that someday DVDs will go away and I'll have to figure out this network install thing, but for right now I use them because it's what I'm comfortable doing.
Thanks for that.
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs?
I am not sure what you mean by 'network install' exactly. If you mean PXE stuff, you don't need to know that to replace DVDs. You can just replace DVDs with a USB stick.
On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server. If you eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.
There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.
On 9/21/18 3:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server. If you eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.
There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.
You mean remote access to the repos won't work as it does for the production netinstall?
Not that I have too much of a problem rsyncing the updates, but I have always done my netinstalls from the mirrors.
On 9/21/18 12:39 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/21/18 3:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server. If you eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.
There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.
You mean remote access to the repos won't work as it does for the production netinstall?
Not that I have too much of a problem rsyncing the updates, but I have always done my netinstalls from the mirrors.
Just to be clear, I was referring to setting up a PXE boot network install, not a standard boot off a DVD or USB drive. The web server is needed to load the installer image, although possibly that could be loaded over tftp as well. Also the kickstart file would be on the web server if you use one.
On 9/21/18 12:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server. If you eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.
There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.
Oh, in this long email thread, I've lost track of people. I thought you were the person I was discussing PXE with earlier. As Adam mentioned, for a basic network install, you can use USB. But in general, however you are currently installing with a DVD, you can do the same with a USB stick. Just write the iso image to it.
On 9/21/18 3:40 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/21/18 12:35 PM, Samuel Sieb wrote:
On 9/21/18 11:56 AM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server. If you eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.
There's also https://boot.fedoraproject.org/ but I can't get it to work.
Oh, in this long email thread, I've lost track of people. I thought you were the person I was discussing PXE with earlier. As Adam mentioned, for a basic network install, you can use USB. But in general, however you are currently installing with a DVD, you can do the same with a USB stick. Just write the iso image to it.
For this list, this has really been an involved thread.
I was the one you were talkiong to about PXE earlier. Not pmkelly.
That said, If you put the Netinstall iso image on a bootable media (bootable for your system), and have decent net access speed, you let Netinstall do its thing to get everything NOT on the iso image from the repos. Nothing to maintain locally. Just potentially a lot of downloads if you do a lot of build testing.
Minimally, you can build a local apache server and rsync the current repos to that. Then point the Netinstall there.
Of course you need IP access in both cases which means DHCP etc.
About time to sign off for the weekend and Sunday night starts Succos, so not much from me until Wednesday.
Have a good time all.
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:35:17PM -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs? I only ask because right now my knowledge of servers (now to set them up and maintain them) is zero and there doesn't seem to be any automatic tools to help. I got a copy of Fedora 28 server. I tried to set it up to serve some data files and failed. After a couple tries I just implemented file sharing and kept the commonly used stuff in one of the PCs Public directory.
Yes, it requires a dhcp server, tftp server, and web server. If you eventually get around to trying to set it up, I would be happy to help.
Doing a PXE install means that. But doing a network install booting from a USB stick (or, eh, a CD/DVD) doesn't need any local infrastructure. Just a route to Fedora mirrors.
On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:56:07 -0400 "pmkellly@frontier.com" pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
BTW does doing network install mean I have to have a server setup to serve the installs?
I think you are mixing two different install methods. There is a netinstall image, that has a barebones Fedora that gets installed, and allows the installation of all other software from the Fedora repositories over the internet. I use this because it is small, and I just install the barebones and some essential packages like vim and such. I then boot into the newly installed Fedora and install what I want from the repositories. This used to be possible to do by installing a small file in /boot, bfo.lkrn, and booting directly from the image that was desired. https://boot.fedoraproject.org/index Unfortunately, as Charles said, it doesn't seem to work anymore. It was great. Just put a stanza in grub.cfg, boot and select it, and everything was downloaded from the internet. No need for media at all. I suppose it just got to be too much trouble to maintain. It doesn't crash or anything, but I think the links are out of date.
menuentry 'Boot BFO' --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os { linux16 /bfo.lkrn }
There is also a net install using a central server for many machines. That is what Samuel was referring to. All the machines are installed using a script and a standard image, pulling everything off the local network instead of the internet. I don't think that is what you want if you were installing from DVD.
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:30 AM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
This kind of disproportionate shift of a criterion's burden is inappropriate. It also sticks in my craw when bugs like this are discovered late.
In theory if you test the released beta, and a nightly early on in freeze, there shouldn't be a regression in the final release that'd cause only optical boot failures.
I'm a +1 to entirely dropping the criterion.
On Sat, 2018-09-22 at 11:06 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:30 AM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
This kind of disproportionate shift of a criterion's burden is inappropriate. It also sticks in my craw when bugs like this are discovered late.
In theory if you test the released beta, and a nightly early on in freeze, there shouldn't be a regression in the final release that'd cause only optical boot failures.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice...:P
On 9/22/18 4:48 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Sat, 2018-09-22 at 11:06 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:30 AM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Yes, frankly. Not a lot of testers even keep a DVD-RW drive and media around any more. It takes like a half hour just to write all the media for testing, then another few hours to run complete installs from them all (since optical media are *slow*).
If it's not burdensome, why does no-one except the paid RH folks ever seem to run the test? And usually at the last minute, at that?
I've had to buy three DVD-RW drives *solely for the purpose of being able to test this* (they keep dying, the things aren't terribly reliable). And I keep a spindle of media around, again, solely for the purpose of testing this, I don't use them for anything else. (In fact I've nearly run out, so if we keep this criteria, I'm gonna have to go out and blow some money on some more media I won't ever use for anything but testing this).
This kind of disproportionate shift of a criterion's burden is inappropriate. It also sticks in my craw when bugs like this are discovered late.
In theory if you test the released beta, and a nightly early on in freeze, there shouldn't be a regression in the final release that'd cause only optical boot failures.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice...:P
I think I was the one, or at least one of the ones that got burned by the F21 OM bug. That was a pain to get F21 installed. That was on this notebook, and I still get this weird message on boot up. It does not seem to affect anything and better let sleeping dogs lie. Also I think that was the last install I did from the full DVD; I only had 768Kb DSL connectivity at the time. I switched to Netinstall when I switched to Comcast and got 5Gb business (they have since 'upgraded' me to 25Gb at no cost).
That said, first week of October, I will get a 'new' notebook, and test out the netinstall iso on a CD.
On 9/20/18 4:23 PM, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:03 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:30:19PM +0000, Rick Stevens wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
How many such systems? Is it worth the cost to support them? Are users of those systems in the targets for our release-blocking deliverables?
We buy used, manufacturer refurbished PCs for the most part to keep costs down. They are generally 5 years old when purchased and they get used for another 5 or more years. They run Fedora and the applications we use just fine. So now it sounds like your telling me I need to buy newer PCs. What age limit do you propose for PCs before Fedora will no longer support them?
My notebook is a Lenovo x120e. I have been getting these for years off ebay, but it looks like I will upgrade soon to an old 141...
Oh I forgot to add in my prior replies on this subject that we used DVDs for long term backups too.
The daily Daf from dafhachaim.org is 100-200MB. The full cycle is ~7.5 years, with 1.5 years left. Any almost full box of DVDs. I also have them on a 4TB HD...
Thumb drives, especially the low cost ones, have not demonstrated good enough characteristics, to be good candidates for long term back ups. ESD is a particularly important issue in that regard.
I have never used one for long term backup.
Have a Great Day!
Pat (tablepc) _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.
I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention problems, but there is also the issue of loss.
Have a Great Day!
Pat (tablepc)
On 9/20/18 3:30 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
On 9/20/18 12:26 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion for Fedora, but I still rip CDs and DVDs ;-)
There are still some systems out there that won't boot off native USB media and need CD/DVD emulation over USB to work. I don't think the time is yet ripe to jettison optical media. Soon, but not just yet.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Chris Murphy lists@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
+1 to dropping the optical media criterion----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigital ricks@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 226437340 Yahoo: origrps2 -
-- Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle. -
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.
I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention problems, but there is also the issue of loss.
USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.
On 9/20/18 5:45 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:10 -0400, pmkellly@frontier.com wrote:
Consider cost please. DVDs are a few cents each. From what I've seen 16 Gb is the smallest thumb drive available now and they are fading fast. Even in lot quantity they are between $6 an d $10 each.
I know they can be reused a few times before they start having retention problems, but there is also the issue of loss.
USB sticks are also *rewriteable*.
I have a dozen or so each of 8GB and 16GB uSD cards for testing Fedora-armhfp. They are a mess to organize. I have tried to setup up index cards with 'slots' for the uSD cards that I can write in pencil what is current on that card. This almost works.
Oh and the 4GB cards that only have a uboot on them...
If some has an effective way of organizing uSD cards or similar devices, I am interested.
On 9/20/18 1:49 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
Justification: http://newsthump.com/2018/05/21/man-decides-to-keep-box-of-cables-hes-has-si...
I installed F28 with a netinstall CD.
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Though it worked with F29-beta, so maybe I should go back and test on F28.
So optical media is important to me. And it seems it was not tested too well for F28....
thanks
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
Indeed. Again. The proposal is just to remove the test as a blocking release criteria.
+1 to the proposal
Ciao, A.
On 9/20/18 4:30 PM, Alessio Ciregia wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:26 PM Matthew Miller <mattdm@fedoraproject.org mailto:mattdm@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote: > I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce > system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. > Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either. Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.Indeed. Again. The proposal is just to remove the test as a blocking release criteria.
+1 to the proposal
At least I can boot my system from USB to try this. Well I see that as a boot option. I never really tested it...
I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!
That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!
Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.
That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.
We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at least.
On 9/20/18 5:16 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:46:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I suppose I can read up how to make a 'LiveCD' on usb, and see if it boots!
Please try the Fedora Media Writer tool.
Will.
That is something else you would have to change to 'LiveUSB'.
We've called our images just "Live" since... as far back as Fedora 7, at least.
Show how much I have been paying attention. But then I am dyslexic and ADHD (good excuse as any)!
On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup device. It has to work.
Or is this strictly on optical install media?
On 9/20/18 1:42 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup device. It has to work.
Or is this strictly on optical install media?
This is only about whether testing optical media to install Fedora is strictly required and whether a problem with installing that way would block the release. It has nothing to do with whether or not you can write to optical media and it doesn't change how Fedora releases will be released.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:42:50PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup device. It has to work. Or is this strictly on optical install media?
The release criteria I am proposing dropping is whether anaconda boots from optical install media.
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup device. It has to work.
Or is this strictly on optical install media?
Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release criteria is this:
"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when written to optical media of an appropriate size"
Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
Okay,
I see. I always burn the ISOs to DVD and do bare metal installs from DVD; so I am testing this criteria every time I install a new drop for testing. Well, I have no plans to change my install procedure. I don't test every drop, and so far I wait to start testing until the new version is branched. Other than that I will certainly report it if I get one that will not boot from DVD. Would it be good for me to test a a couple of Rawhide drops just after the beginning of each cycle?
I guess, given this, I don't mind if it's no longer a blocker for Beta; as long as it is still expected functionality and works in the released version.
Have a Great Day!
Pat (tablepc)
On 9/20/18 5:49 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2018-09-20 at 16:42 -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 9/20/18 4:25 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 04:17:52PM -0400, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I burn CDs regularly for my wife. I cannot do this on my F28 Xfce system with k3b. See bug 1583845. I have to use my F24 old system. Can't burn DVDs (for backups of video lectures) either.
Burning DVDs is a completely separate issue.
It is the same optical device, if I use it as my boot device or a backup device. It has to work.
Or is this strictly on optical install media?
Yes. We do not have 'burning optical discs from Fedora must work' in the release criteria, and never have. What we have in the release criteria is this:
"Release-blocking live and dedicated installer images must boot when written to optical media of an appropriate size"
Matthew is proposing that we drop that.
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