Hi Ya'll,
I know that there are, to me, seems like A LOT of email clients for the linux world.
And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO CRINGE..... POP3 user.
Last week I tried TDE ( Trinity Desktop ) on Debian. and decided to give KMAIL a try... Big mistake... Importing my email into KMAIL caused the emails names to be changed from numbers ( because I used Claws before) to this weird string of letters and numbers. Therefore, I could not import my email back to CLAWS since I gave up and returned to Fedora and Gnome 3.
I plan on staying with Fedora and Gnome 3.
I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
Thanks, Chris
On 2022-02-11 12:15, fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
Hi Ya'll,
I know that there are, to me, seems like A LOT of email clients for the linux world.
And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO CRINGE..... POP3 user.
Last week I tried TDE ( Trinity Desktop ) on Debian. and decided to give KMAIL a try... Big mistake... Importing my email into KMAIL caused the emails names to be changed from numbers ( because I used Claws before) to this weird string of letters and numbers. Therefore, I could not import my email back to CLAWS since I gave up and returned to Fedora and Gnome 3.
I plan on staying with Fedora and Gnome 3.
I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
Thanks, Chris
Also... I forgot to add... I have emails saved in the Claws-Mail format going all the way back to 2016 when I first got this domain.
My current Claws-Mail file stands at 719.4 MB. I have enough data for a Ubuntu 13.x ISO..
Back when Linux ISO's were 700 Megs. What happened to those days? :\
Chris
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:15:42 -0600 fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
I use fetchmail to download mail from every other mail server onto my home machine, where fetchmail then injects the mail into the dovecot imap server. With dovecot sieve support, I filter the mail into appropriate IMAP folders (or simply discard it). Then I can use any email client to talk to my local IMAP server without having to convert or transfer mail anywhere.
The client I like best is claws-mail which allows be to disable html mail so I can example any plain text before deciding to actually read it (by opening in chrome).
Chris:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
Tom Horsley wrote:
I use fetchmail to download mail from every other mail server onto my home machine, where fetchmail then injects the mail into the dovecot imap server. With dovecot sieve support, I filter the mail into appropriate IMAP folders (or simply discard it). Then I can use any email client to talk to my local IMAP server without having to convert or transfer mail anywhere.
I do the same thing, excepting that I use Evolution as my mail client. But since the mail is on a server, not in my mail client, I can try out alternative clients and not lose any mail. Thus far, Evolution is the least-worst one I've found on Linux.
I have a small LAN, and it's handy to be able to do mail on any computer, and having it all in one server helps with that. I don't really need to do mail away from my LAN. If I did, I could make my mail server publicly accessible, but I'd rather not deal with that security nightmare. The alternative would be to use an external mail service that dragged in all mail from other addresses to it. Plenty offer that feature, or used to (it's years since I looked).
Mail in IMAP has various advantages that POP3 doesn't have.
You can look at the headers of all available messages, and only fetch the ones your interested in (by name, subject, etc). You can filter based on headers (and that's quicker than taking the whole message in and filtering).
A standard way of marking messages as read/unread, etc.
Here, read what someone else has said, instead of me going through them all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protocol
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 at 08:01, Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Chris:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
Tom Horsley wrote:
I use fetchmail to download mail from every other mail server onto my home machine, where fetchmail then injects the mail into the dovecot imap server. With dovecot sieve support, I filter the mail into appropriate IMAP folders (or simply discard it). Then I can use any email client to talk to my local IMAP server without having to convert or transfer mail anywhere.
I do the same thing, excepting that I use Evolution as my mail client. But since the mail is on a server, not in my mail client, I can try out alternative clients and not lose any mail. Thus far, Evolution is the least-worst one I've found on Linux.
I have a small LAN, and it's handy to be able to do mail on any computer, and having it all in one server helps with that. I don't really need to do mail away from my LAN. If I did, I could make my mail server publicly accessible, but I'd rather not deal with that security nightmare. The alternative would be to use an external mail service that dragged in all mail from other addresses to it. Plenty offer that feature, or used to (it's years since I looked).
Mail in IMAP has various advantages that POP3 doesn't have.
You can look at the headers of all available messages, and only fetch the ones your interested in (by name, subject, etc). You can filter based on headers (and that's quicker than taking the whole message in and filtering).
IMAP can use folders (aka multiple mailboxes) on the server. I haven't used POP since IMAP2bis arrived in pine -- maybe modern POP3 supports folders. My pre-retirement work often involved sorting out issues on random workstations (back when people had actual offices scattered over a couple floors/buildings) so it was important to have quick access to email via IMAP from whatever workstation was having issues.
A standard way of marking messages as read/unread, etc.
Here, read what someone else has said, instead of me going through them all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protocol
On Sat, 2022-02-12 at 09:06 -0400, George N. White III wrote:
IMAP can use folders (aka multiple mailboxes) on the server. I haven't used POP since IMAP2bis arrived in pine -- maybe modern POP3 supports folders.
It doesn't. The POP model has not fundamentally changed since its creation. IMAP was designed mainly to overcome its many limitations while still offering everything that POP has.
poc
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 22:31:10 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Tom Horsley wrote:
I use fetchmail to download mail from every other mail server onto my home machine, where fetchmail then injects the mail into the dovecot imap server. With dovecot sieve support, I filter the mail into appropriate IMAP folders (or simply discard it). Then I can use any email client to talk to my local IMAP server without having to convert or transfer mail anywhere.
That is true, you could use any mail client that you want to.
Thus far, Evolution is the least-worst one I've found on Linux.<<
You must of never had to use the Evolution mail group before.. They're quite rude over there. Basically, they give you the nice " GO RTFM" for replies, even though you tried Googling your issue.
" Go to HELP > AND XXXX" and read the help guide."
I use to really love Evolution until that started happening.
Mail in IMAP has various advantages that POP3 doesn't have.
You can look at the headers of all available messages, and only fetch the ones your interested in (by name, subject, etc). You can filter based on headers (and that's quicker than taking the whole message in and filtering).
How do you do that? When I tried IMAP, on this sat dish connection, here in Claws, Claws slowly loaded the whole inbox and displayed everything in the inbox.
And every time I switched folders it took it a min to display everything in that folder.
Chris
On 13Feb2022 12:58, c. marlow fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
How do you do that? When I tried IMAP, on this sat dish connection, here in Claws, Claws slowly loaded the whole inbox and displayed everything in the inbox.
Ah, satellite land. Me too! >600ms ping times, best case (for geostationary). However, throughput can be ok, you just need to drive it well. That's what drove me to write my pop3 tool - things like ftechmail and getmail do synchronous fetch/delete steps per message. My tool stremas the fetches and also the deletes. Full speed throughput after the login step. Even over a 4G link it is far faster than getmail.
And every time I switched folders it took it a min to display everything in that folder.
The downside of serverside email, writ large. This is one of the reasons I like my email local. My filing system forwards "important" things to a distinct mailbox for my phone to access if I want an "in the cloud" copy.
Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au
Tim:
Thus far, Evolution is the least-worst one I've found on Linux.
Chris:
You must of never had to use the Evolution mail group before.. They're quite rude over there. Basically, they give you the nice " GO RTFM" for replies, even though you tried Googling your issue.
" Go to HELP > AND XXXX" and read the help guide."
I use to really love Evolution until that started happening.
True, I've never used their forum.
Manual, what manual? Ha! I just pressed F1 for help, it opened my web browser to: https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/3.28 Giving me:
Not Found The requested URL /users/evolution/3.28 was not found on this server.
But, in the past, I've seen Gnome manuals for such programs where all they do is give a one-liner on each control. This button downloads your mail, this button prints it. I can figure that out for myself. Narrating the icons and menu is useless. I need a manual that explains how your program does something, so I can figure out how to get it to do what it's supposed to, when it's not. Tell me how the different options for a function work, what they do. Though that problem is endemic with most software.
But when I say "least worst" I mean various things like, the following, just to mention a few of the main ones:
The program has to run without being a major CPU hog.
I want to use a three-pane view (list of folders, list of mail in the current folder, and view the message). The layout needs to be ergonomic. I have to be able to read the contents in each pane without it being a pain, no reading a magazine through a keyhole effects.
When I type a reply, I don't want mangled quoted paragraphs because your program is utterly crap at either not re-wrapping text, or does a job like a three-year old has typed it, with line breaks where they don't belong, mixtures of different length lines, quote indicators splattered through the paragraph and an untidy mess left of it. I need to be able to unmangle the quoted text without it being a major fight.
Even more important, when I type MY text it has to be unmangled. It should be as good as a word processor at handling line breaks, especially if I edit a paragraph and change something in the middle. I've been doing email for around 30, and still morons write email programs that just can't get the basics right.
I want proper flags on my mail. Only, ONLY, bloody ONLY, mark a mail as read if *I* have actually read it. Don't mark old mail as read to hide it from me. I need some damn way to tell which mails I've read and not read. If I'm ignoring a thread, don't mark it read, either do nothing or mark it ignored. If it's that bad I'll delete it. If I want to hide older mail to quickly see the latest, I'll use a filter that only shows me the last few days messages in the list. But when you mark an email as read, when I haven't, it makes it damn hard to find a message someone sent me a while ago but I haven't actually read. Considering how email is often used for business, in software that's supposed to be office software, it's vital to not bugger that up.
It's not bloody rocket science! But there is some truly dire programs out there, including the main ones that most people use.
I'm reminded of that scene in the Tomorrow Never Dies Bond film where the evil henchmen are having a video conference and one of them tells his boss: as requested the software is full of bugs, so they'll be updating for years. I'm sure that line was thrown in by a writer who was sick of Microsoft's crap.
Mail in IMAP has various advantages that POP3 doesn't have.
You can look at the headers of all available messages, and only fetch the ones your interested in (by name, subject, etc). You can filter based on headers (and that's quicker than taking the whole message in and filtering).
How do you do that? When I tried IMAP, on this sat dish connection, here in Claws, Claws slowly loaded the whole inbox and displayed everything in the inbox.
And every time I switched folders it took it a min to display everything in that folder.
It's an option (depending on how good your software is client &/or server). When you open a mail folder, you can
* Only fetch very brief headers only (e.g. from, to, subject, date), and it'll only fetch the actual message when you select it from your list. * Or, only prefetch more extensive headers (more headers that are useful for filtering) * prefetch the entire message * It's even optional about fetching attachments (brilliant for wading through mail where people have sent you 50 meg attachments).
It is designed for being able to minimise network traffic and be more efficient at it. Though, your program also has to be written intelligently (I've already roasted that concept). And the very nature of email (lots of individual messages) does mean that some network environments are more painful than others. For laggy ones, it can be simplest to download everything as a lump, then deal with it a minute later all locally cached.
For me, I fetch my mail into my LAN mail server. That's quick. But even for people with high speed broadband optical fibre connections direct to their ISP, they can have a painful experience doing mail over the network, all down to how badly their ISP runs their network and mail server.
On my LAN, using IMAP means I can manage my mail on any computer on the LAN, easily. If I was using POP3, that'd be a complete nightmare.
On 2022-02-13 8:03 p.m., Tim via users wrote:
Tim:
Thus far, Evolution is the least-worst one I've found on Linux.
I used fetchmail for a lot of years. Then one of my upstream email servers switched to a modified and mostly-undocumented Yahoo connection mechanism, and I could not find the correct connection strings and ports to make it work, and was forced into either switching email clients or using a web browser as a substandard email client. Various web notes for connecting are now improved enough that I think I could move back to fetchmail if circumstances required it.
I moved from fetchmail to Evolution, and initially thought it was brilliant. The only initial issues that I faced were in trying to configure undocumented connectivity to Rogers (altered Yahoo) and Google upstream mail services. Eventually, somebody published the correct incantations, like using SSMTP ports but not the protocol, and all was good for quite some time. However, the Evolution ivory tower released a couple of bad versions that corrupted their internal db and I lost a lot of mail as a result. IMHO, I have no idea why someone thought a db was a good idea in an email client, but maybe they came from a Microsoft background and email using the Jet db. Anyway, I was never able to correct the problem, as there are no recovery tools, the devs are uncommunicative, and I experienced very poor support from their user group. While I've done it very long ago, I have better things to develop than debugging what is supposed to be a well-designed client. Maybe I only work on well-designed code, since I think that the coding complexity of Evolution is a bunch of accidents waiting to happen.
After about 2 years of fighting with an overly-complex mail client with internal corruption, I just gave up and switched to Thunderbird. My first happy surprise was when both current upstream providers were recognized and correctly configured. Then I got very busy after hours, as I could see about 10k of unread emails that Thunderbird had not fetched, presumably due to their broken db issues. After a week of reading and getting back to people that I should have, I got my fingers well programmed for Thunderbird. Luckily, if you use Firefox, then there is a lot of commonality in the UI. I've now been using Thunderbird for about 3 years on a dozen machines, and am still happy with it. Its now my go-to email client across multiple platforms, even (gasp!) Windows. Its heavyweight, but very capable.
--
John Mellor
On Sun, 2022-02-13 at 22:03 -0500, John Mellor wrote:
I used fetchmail for a lot of years. Then one of my upstream email servers switched to a modified and mostly-undocumented Yahoo connection mechanism, and I could not find the correct connection strings and ports to make it work, and was forced into either switching email clients or using a web browser as a substandard email client. Various web notes for connecting are now improved enough that I think I could move back to fetchmail if circumstances required it.
Every now and then someone "improves" their software so that you're forced to go through their crappy advertising-infested interface. I only keep using a Yahoo mail, because of spam. At that stage, they were the cause of most of it, so I figured their servers could receive most of it. Serve the buggers right.
I went through a stage where they changed something and it took quite a bit of experimenting with what ports to use, which security protocol to use, how to login (username or full address), before I could receive send mail again. Around the same time it became important to send through the services own SMTP servers so they verified your mail for you as being real, so other servers would accept it.
My hosted service recently (again) decided to tell us to stop logging into their mail services using its real address, and use our own domain names that it virtually serves. The trouble is, the security certificates are all in its name, so fetchmail complains of a security fault. I can override and download anyway, from *apparently* the wrong server, or not get my mail. That's *not* security, that's insecurity.
I've tried Thunderbird over the years, but (like a web browser) it's overly convoluted for what it actually needs to do. Its mail editor has always been painful, I don't think much of its viewer either.
Years ago, MANY years ago, I tried Opera on Windows 98SE. They decided to use a database for mail storage. That may have worked well for ordinary users who might have 100 emails (if they keep them), but it couldn't cope with the workload of people who participate in mailing lists (like this Fedora one).
Since I use fetchmail to a local Dovecot server, mail is stored how I like it (maildir), and it doesn't matter what silliness the mail client uses, the mail client only caches things as it reads it, rather than store it. In my prior installation Dovecot used mailbox (one huge file per mail folder), that was diabolically slow once one got moderately big. When I replaced the server I put the effort into figuring out how to make it use maildir, that was a massive speed improvement. Things work in a flash, now.
On Sun, 2022-02-13 at 22:03 -0500, John Mellor wrote:
I moved from fetchmail to Evolution, and initially thought it was brilliant. The only initial issues that I faced were in trying to configure undocumented connectivity to Rogers (altered Yahoo) and Google upstream mail services. Eventually, somebody published the correct incantations, like using SSMTP ports but not the protocol, and all was good for quite some time. However, the Evolution ivory tower released a couple of bad versions that corrupted their internal db and I lost a lot of mail as a result. IMHO, I have no idea why someone thought a db was a good idea in an email client, but maybe they came from a Microsoft background and email using the Jet db. Anyway, I was never able to correct the problem, as there are no recovery tools, the devs are uncommunicative, and I experienced very poor support from their user group. While I've done it very long ago, I have better things to develop than debugging what is supposed to be a well-designed client. Maybe I only work on well-designed code, since I think that the coding complexity of Evolution is a bunch of accidents waiting to happen.
I'm sorry you had that experience, but I have to assume that this happened quite some time ago. The current maintainer is in fact extremely communicative and anxious to resolve problems.
I agree that the code base of Evolution is large, at least in part because it's not just a mail client, and that even as an MUA it has to deal with Exchange (it's the go-to MUA for Exchange users on Linux). Personally, I only ever use IMAP and don't particularly care about the non-mail aspects, so it works for me.
poc
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 11:33 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
Manual, what manual? Ha! I just pressed F1 for help, it opened my web browser to: https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/3.28 Giving me:
Not Found The requested URL /users/evolution/3.28 was not found on this server.
Recall that Evolution is available on multiple distros and that the Evo list is not restricted to Fedora. The Help docs are often in a separate package. For Fedora, it's "evolution-help".
poc
Tim:
Manual, what manual? Ha! I just pressed F1 for help, it opened my web browser to: https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/3.28 Giving me:
Not Found The requested URL /users/evolution/3.28 was not found on this server.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
Recall that Evolution is available on multiple distros and that the Evo list is not restricted to Fedora. The Help docs are often in a separate package. For Fedora, it's "evolution-help".
That may be, but *it* tried to access its own manual over the internet and got that response. Sure, I can knock 3.28 of the end of the URI and find a manual, but what I find is still little more than a power point presentation kind of thing, not an actual explanatory manual. And if I install the Help package, I get the same useless thing in a Gnome help window.
We'd never be able to use Apache if their manual was as useless as Evolution's (likewise for many other software).
On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 17:58 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
Tim:
Manual, what manual? Ha! I just pressed F1 for help, it opened my web browser to: https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/3.28 Giving me:
Not Found The requested URL /users/evolution/3.28 was not found on this server.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
Recall that Evolution is available on multiple distros and that the Evo list is not restricted to Fedora. The Help docs are often in a separate package. For Fedora, it's "evolution-help".
That may be, but *it* tried to access its own manual over the internet and got that response. Sure, I can knock 3.28 of the end of the URI and find a manual, but what I find is still little more than a power point presentation kind of thing, not an actual explanatory manual. And if I install the Help package, I get the same useless thing in a Gnome help window.
We'd never be able to use Apache if their manual was as useless as Evolution's (likewise for many other software).
I can't answer that, except to say that the current version of Evolution is 3.42 and you seem to be using 3.28. That's roughly 7 years out of date. In the interim the root website has changed:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Evolution/
poc
On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 12:36 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I can't answer that, except to say that the current version of Evolution is 3.42 and you seem to be using 3.28. That's roughly 7 years out of date. In the interim the root website has changed:
Only because *this* PC is using CentOS 7, another one has Fedora. I don't think it should be *that* far out of date, but it is CentOS 7's current version.
On 15 Feb 2022, at 14:26, Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 12:36 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I can't answer that, except to say that the current version of Evolution is 3.42 and you seem to be using 3.28. That's roughly 7 years out of date. In the interim the root website has changed:
Only because *this* PC is using CentOS 7, another one has Fedora. I don't think it should be *that* far out of date, but it is CentOS 7's current version.
Centos 7 is frozen to versions of packages from about 7 or 8 years ago. The whole point of centos is to support old versions of software for the long term. It’s not my choice for desktop os because the apps are so old and hard to get help with.
Barry
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 17:12:45 +0000 Barry barry@barrys-emacs.org wrote:
Centos 7 is frozen to versions of packages from about 7 or 8 years ago. The whole point of centos is to support old versions of software for the long term. It’s not my choice for desktop os because the apps are so old and hard to get help with.
So basically CenTOS is another version of "Debian" basically? Debian sticks with "older" software.
Chris
On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 12:21 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
So basically CenTOS is another version of "Debian" basically? Debian sticks with "older" software.
No, it's a recompilation of Red Hat, RHEL.
But, yes, it was a long-term install. Various distros had long-life versions as well as short-term ones.
On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 at 14:21, c. marlow fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 17:12:45 +0000 Barry barry@barrys-emacs.org wrote:
Centos 7 is frozen to versions of packages from about 7 or 8 years ago. The whole point of centos is to support old versions of software for the long term. It’s not my choice for desktop os because the apps are so old and hard to get help with.
So basically CenTOS is another version of "Debian" basically? Debian sticks with "older" software.
Debian has stable and unstable releases. I use Debian unstable and Fedora to check for issues in "mission critical" apps to help ensure they get noticed and fixed before wide adoption. The majority of installations use Ubuntu LTS releases which generally track Debian stable releases. Large organizations often expect new systems to need startup work, but then expect them to run with patch updates for 5 years (plus 2 years it takes to do "new business cases, new threat/risk assessments, purchase, and commissioning"). This means there are still "mission critical" systems running RHEL/CentOS 7 and Ubuntu 16.04 LTS.
On 2/15/22 12:12, Barry wrote:
On 15 Feb 2022, at 14:26, Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 12:36 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I can't answer that, except to say that the current version of Evolution is 3.42 and you seem to be using 3.28. That's roughly 7 years out of date. In the interim the root website has changed:
Only because *this* PC is using CentOS 7, another one has Fedora. I don't think it should be *that* far out of date, but it is CentOS 7's current version.
Centos 7 is frozen to versions of packages from about 7 or 8 years ago. The whole point of centos is to support old versions of software for the long term. It’s not my choice for desktop os because the apps are so old and hard to get help with.
I ran CentOS on my notebook until Fedora 6; that is when I made the switch even with the semi-annual ver upgrade approach. It was always behind, for good reasons on apps.
Now I typically only do annual Fedora upgrades; when the ver I am using EOLs. Thus I tend to be current and avoid, for the most part old stuff. Though new stuff does not always work (can't figure out why VLC hard hangs my system with some videos).
In all seriousness, there has to be a good hardware reason to run CentOS on a notebook.
Barry
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On 15Feb2022 17:12, Barry Scott barry@barrys-emacs.org wrote:
Centos 7 is frozen to versions of packages from about 7 or 8 years ago. The whole point of centos is to support old versions of software for the long term. It’s not my choice for desktop os because the apps are so old and hard to get help with.
CentOS and RedHat release stick with the version which came out with their release (7.0, 7.1 etc). That gets you stabilty, often wanted on production systems. Security fixes (and some bugfixes) get backported by RedHat. You only get new package versions (versus new builds of the stable versions) when you upgrade releases.
Stability is the release objective for these distros.
Fedora, OTOH, is fast moving.
Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au
On Wed, 2022-02-16 at 00:55 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
On Tue, 2022-02-15 at 12:36 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I can't answer that, except to say that the current version of Evolution is 3.42 and you seem to be using 3.28. That's roughly 7 years out of date. In the interim the root website has changed:
Only because *this* PC is using CentOS 7, another one has Fedora. I don't think it should be *that* far out of date, but it is CentOS 7's current version.
It *is* that far out of date.
You have the option of installing a Flatpak version (assuming this works on Centos) which would be up to date but may have other issues as it basically runs in a sandbox and has only limited communication with the rest of the desktop.
poc
Tim:
Only because *this* PC is using CentOS 7, another one has Fedora. I don't think it should be *that* far out of date, but it is CentOS 7's current version.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
It *is* that far out of date.
You have the option of installing a Flatpak version (assuming this works on Centos) which would be up to date but may have other issues as it basically runs in a sandbox and has only limited communication with the rest of the desktop.
This PC is the main file/mail/web-server, etc., so it runs something I don't have to update twice a year, even once a year would be seriously annoying. Yes, I know you shouldn't work on your server, but it's a small LAN, and I don't want to install yet another a computer.
I'm surprised that client software is kept so old, on purpose, it really should only have itself to depend on, I can only imagine that newer versions can't handle older system libraries. Server software, I fully understand. Other things do stay far more current, Firefox, for instance.
I won't go down the headaches of flatpaks and their ilk. I've already got the pain of dealing with an appimage of MuseScore (can't print, isn't updated with all the other software with "yum update", can't be updated because newer versions won't run on CentOS 7, etc). I don't fancy having to manually look after more software, and I don't see this version of Evolution missing any functionality, at this time.
On Wed, 2022-02-16 at 19:18 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
I'm surprised that client software is kept so old, on purpose, it really should only have itself to depend on, I can only imagine that newer versions can't handle older system libraries. Server software, I fully understand. Other things do stay far more current, Firefox, for instance.
Evolution is a component of Gnome, so I'm assuming that your Gnome desktop on that Centos system will be similarly out of date. If not, there's something weird going on.
AFAIK it is possible to install Evo with a different library root by building it yourself, but that's a non-trivial process.
poc
I meant to ask you Patrick:
What format does Evolution use to store emails in?
Like for instance... Claws uses the MH format where it stores all emails as individual numbered files.
======================= Thanks, Chris
Please send *ALL* off list conversations to Chris@CWM030.com Otherwise, I will never see it.
On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 11:55 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
What format does Evolution use to store emails in?
Of the few folders mine does store locally, it's in maildir. I don't know if that's user-selectable, though. The preferences window even says it's maildir for the default "on this computer" folder, but that folder's not editable (there's only an enable/disable entire folder option for it).
I suspect though, that internally it sticks with maildir for storing any mail it's fetched itself. All the local mail folders I see in ~/.local/share/evolution/mail/ are maildir.
Maildir is a later improvement on MH (according to other authors), so I'll take their word on that and not debate it, but it's a similar scheme of individual files for each message, though without an index file.
You can create non-network accounts where it'll read mail files that are already on the drive (something else will have to bring them onto the computer), and then you have a choice of local delivery (no clues in the preferences interface as to what it reads), MH format, maildir format, standard Unix mbox spool directory, and standard Unix mbox spool file.
I seem to recall importing old mail spool files into Evolution, years ago, simply by dragging and dropping a spool file onto a mail folder inside Evolution's window, and it automatically handled parsing it. I'm fairly sure that was how I finally moved my old mailspool files from the old Dovecot mail server into the new Dovecot server using maildir. Every mail moving tool I'd looked at seemed to require a computing degree to understand how to drive it.
For my mail it accesses through my IMAP server, it doesn't appear to be caching them anywhere that I can see (and I've not asked it to).
Seeing how you mentioned satellite internet, that's one of the laggiest systems and you probably are best off pre-fetching all your mail as a batch, whatever protocol you use. Then you're just stepping through your local cache as you read them.
On Tue, 2022-02-22 at 13:30 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
Of the few folders mine does store locally, it's in maildir. I don't know if that's user-selectable, though. The preferences window even says it's maildir for the default "on this computer" folder, but that folder's not editable (there's only an enable/disable entire folder option for it).
I suspect though, that internally it sticks with maildir for storing any mail it's fetched itself. All the local mail folders I see in ~/.local/share/evolution/mail/ are maildir.
IIRC it's the default for the account, but can be changed at setup time.
https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/stable/mail-account-management.html.e...
poc
Tim:
Of the few folders mine does store locally, it's in maildir. I don't know if that's user-selectable, though. The preferences window even says it's maildir for the default "on this computer" folder, but that folder's not editable (there's only an enable/disable entire folder option for it).
I suspect though, that internally it sticks with maildir for storing any mail it's fetched itself. All the local mail folders I see in ~/.local/share/evolution/mail/ are maildir.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
IIRC it's the default for the account, but can be changed at setup time.
https://help.gnome.org/users/evolution/stable/mail-account-management.html.e...
The "on this computer" folder(s) can be switched on or off, but can't be deleted or edited for format type.
I'd already mentioned creating non-network ones (as far as Evolution is concerned), where something else has fetched the mail and locally stored them, for them you can configure how Evolution works with them. Indeed, you have to, if something else brought in mail as maildir, then you need Evolution to work in the same way.
I'd noticed that for my other accounts I'd created they don't have any local folders. Accounts I'd created to use IMAP with my LAN mail server, IMAP with gmail, SMTP with Yahoo, etc. I don't have any of them set to locally cache, and I'm not going to try it to see what it does. But I'd suspect maildir would get used for any caching, based on the other local one that doesn't offer you configuration options, you don't get any questions about how to store these, either.
Oddly, there's some orphaned folders in there untouched from when I experimented with Evolution a couple of years back, where there's a folder name of a hash@domain name with a folders.db SQL file in it. I've created and removed folders since their dates, so I'm certain they're old ones unrelated to current operation. I think they should have been deleted by Evolution at the time, but they've not been. There's only about 12kB in total, so I don't care all that much.
On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 11:55 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I meant to ask you Patrick:
What format does Evolution use to store emails in?
Like for instance... Claws uses the MH format where it stores all emails as individual numbered files.
It's configurable. It can use the old MBOX format but the best option for local mail is probably Maildir, which keeps a separate file for each message and is lock-free.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maildir
If you have detailed questions, I'd suggest asking on the Evolution list (evolution-list@gnome.org). You can check the archives at:
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/
When posting on the list, be sure to mention your version of Evolution (Help->About).
poc
On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 19:18:35 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
This PC is the main file/mail/web-server, etc., so it runs something I don't have to update twice a year, even once a year would be seriously annoying. Yes, I know you shouldn't work on your server, but it's a small LAN, and I don't want to install yet another a computer.
If I understood this correctly, You don't run " sudo dnf update" but twice a year? :O
I run my " sudo dnf update" every Sunday.
Chris
Tim:
This PC is the main file/mail/web-server, etc., so it runs something I don't have to update twice a year, even once a year would be seriously annoying. Yes, I know you shouldn't work on your server, but it's a small LAN, and I don't want to install yet another a computer.
Chris.
If I understood this correctly, You don't run " sudo dnf update" but twice a year? :O
I run my " sudo dnf update" every Sunday.
Sorry, it was not a very clear description by me. I meant a whole system update, like going from Fedora 34 to Fedora 35.
I do yum or dnf updates every few days. It has to be a moment when I've got time to deal with any potential problems it causes. It's rare, but sometimes a software update bolixes something up.
On Sun, 2022-02-13 at 12:58 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
Thus far, Evolution is the least-worst one I've found on Linux.<<
You must of never had to use the Evolution mail group before.. They're quite rude over there. Basically, they give you the nice " GO RTFM" for replies, even though you tried Googling your issue.
" Go to HELP > AND XXXX" and read the help guide."
I use to really love Evolution until that started happening.
I'm one of the moderators of the Evolution list. Pointing out that an issue is addressed in the Help is not rude, and anything not dealt with that way is typically answered by many of the very helpful contributors, one of whom is the principal maintainer of Evolution.
poc
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 13:41:12 -0500 Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:15:42 -0600 fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
I use fetchmail to download mail from every other mail server onto my home machine, where fetchmail then injects the mail into the dovecot imap server. With dovecot sieve support, I filter the mail into appropriate IMAP folders (or simply discard it). Then I can use any email client to talk to my local IMAP server without having to convert or transfer mail anywhere.
The client I like best is claws-mail which allows be to disable html mail so I can example any plain text before deciding to actually read it (by opening in chrome).
That sounds very confusing lol.
I think if I was to use IMAP, I would redirect my email from my Web host's mailbox which only offers you 25 gigs of storage, to my FREE gmail account, since I am one of those that keeps EVERYTHING. At least GMAIL offers upgrades in storage space, where my web host doesn't.
Chris
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2022 13:13:42 -0600 From: "c. marlow" fedora@cwm030.com
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 13:41:12 -0500 Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:15:42 -0600 fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
I use fetchmail to download mail from every other mail server onto my home machine, where fetchmail then injects the mail into the dovecot imap server. With dovecot sieve support, I filter the mail into appropriate IMAP folders (or simply discard it). Then I can use any email client to talk to my local IMAP server without having to convert or transfer mail anywhere.
The client I like best is claws-mail which allows be to disable html mail so I can example any plain text before deciding to actually read it (by opening in chrome).
That sounds very confusing lol.
I think if I was to use IMAP, I would redirect my email from my Web host's mailbox which only offers you 25 gigs of storage, to my FREE gmail account, since I am one of those that keeps EVERYTHING. At least GMAIL offers upgrades in storage space, where my web host doesn't.
Chris
I too have used the in-house imap server approach, for many years. There are different ways to pull mail from the MSP's imap server to your own. I happen to currently do this, with heavy filtering and folder management, via an imap client that is always up. I leave (and sometimes copying back) certain types of messages that I might need when remote on the MSP's server. Depending on my connectivity type I sometimes make my in-house server externally accessible.
Once the messages are on your own server it's easy to manage things as you wish. Other benefits of course include system backups and not being dependent on the vagaries of a mail client, and desktop machine (or worse, mobile device) for maintaining the message store.
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:15:42 -0600 fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
Hi Ya'll,
I know that there are, to me, seems like A LOT of email clients for the linux world.
And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO CRINGE..... POP3 user.
Last week I tried TDE ( Trinity Desktop ) on Debian. and decided to give KMAIL a try... Big mistake... Importing my email into KMAIL caused the emails names to be changed from numbers ( because I used Claws before) to this weird string of letters and numbers. Therefore, I could not import my email back to CLAWS since I gave up and returned to Fedora and Gnome 3.
I plan on staying with Fedora and Gnome 3.
I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
I use Fedora and claws-mail. I also use pop3. I do not leave any thing on someone else's server (no contact list, no emails, etc). That way I am much less likely to have someone hack my email account and send spam emails out to everyone in my contact list.
David
Thanks, Chris _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Hello Chris,
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 12:15:42 -0600 fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
I know that there are, to me, seems like A LOT of email clients for the linux world.
And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO CRINGE..... POP3 user.
Last week I tried TDE ( Trinity Desktop ) on Debian. and decided to give KMAIL a try... Big mistake... Importing my email into KMAIL caused the emails names to be changed from numbers ( because I used Claws before) to this weird string of letters and numbers. Therefore, I could not import my email back to CLAWS since I gave up and returned to Fedora and Gnome 3.
I plan on staying with Fedora and Gnome 3.
I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
I use Claws Mail on several systems (including a Fedora and a CentOS), with POP3 on my main machine (where I keep the whole history of my emails), and IMAP4 on secondary or mobile devices or for accounts where it's pertinent. Whenever to use POP or IMAP is very dependent on some factors or criteria that a quite subjective. I personally prefer not keeping personal stuff on remote servers, and I having a reference machine where POP3 is used if possible. Which means: using IMAP only for very specific uses. Moreover, using IMAP will make you dependent of remote resource and you must be online, the use of IMAP accounts generate much more network traffic, that's a problem to me. I also experienced very slow or unreliable IMAP servers (orange.fr, the worst one ever?) and when it's slow or not reliable, having to push everything online (drafts, sent and their copy to Sent emails, ..) is just a pain in the *ss.
Regards,
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:54:16 +0100 wwp subscript@free.fr wrote:
Moreover, using IMAP will make you dependent of remote resource and you must be online, the use of IMAP accounts generate much more network traffic, that's a problem to me. I also experienced very slow or unreliable IMAP servers (orange.fr, the worst one ever?) and when it's slow or not reliable, having to push everything online (drafts, sent and their copy to Sent emails, ..) is just a pain in the *ss.
About the network point you made:
I am on a satellite dish connection and we only get so much data a month and then when we run out, we're lowered to 1 to 3 megs until our reset day.
But, a lot of people on the internet has told me that IMAP doesn't use a lot of data. I don't believe it though.
Chris
On 2022-02-13 2:09 p.m., c. marlow wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:54:16 +0100 wwp subscript@free.fr wrote:
Moreover, using IMAP will make you dependent of remote resource and you must be online, the use of IMAP accounts generate much more network traffic, that's a problem to me. I also experienced very slow or unreliable IMAP servers (orange.fr, the worst one ever?) and when it's slow or not reliable, having to push everything online (drafts, sent and their copy to Sent emails, ..) is just a pain in the *ss.
About the network point you made:
I am on a satellite dish connection and we only get so much data a month and then when we run out, we're lowered to 1 to 3 megs until our reset day.
But, a lot of people on the internet has told me that IMAP doesn't use a lot of data. I don't believe it though.
That's actually a good reason to use IMAP instead, as the normal behaviour is to download the headers and not the bodies. You only download the bodies on mails that you read, so unless you don't get any spam or if you actually read every single message that you get, your bandwidth usage will normally appreciably be lower with IMAP.
--
John Mellor
John Mellor writes:
On 2022-02-13 2:09 p.m., c. marlow wrote:
I am on a satellite dish connection and we only get so much data a month and then when we run out, we're lowered to 1 to 3 megs until our reset day.
But, a lot of people on the internet has told me that IMAP doesn't use a lot of data. I don't believe it though.
That's actually a good reason to use IMAP instead, as the normal behaviour is to download the headers and not the bodies. You only download the bodies on mails that you read, so unless you don't get any spam or if you actually read every single message that you get, your bandwidth usage will normally appreciably be lower with IMAP.
There's no such thing as "normal behavior" when it comes to IMAP. It all depends entirely on how a mail client uses it.
It is true that IMAP offers a compact way of downloading a compact, capsule summary, of the messages in each folder.
So, if your IMAP client uses it, great.
But there's nothing that stops the IMAP client from downloading every email message in the mailbox, as soon as it sees it, if it so chooses to do so.
Hello John,
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 15:40:16 -0500 John Mellor john.mellor@gmail.com wrote:
On 2022-02-13 2:09 p.m., c. marlow wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:54:16 +0100 wwp subscript@free.fr wrote:
Moreover, using IMAP will make you dependent of remote resource and you must be online, the use of IMAP accounts generate much more network traffic, that's a problem to me. I also experienced very slow or unreliable IMAP servers (orange.fr, the worst one ever?) and when it's slow or not reliable, having to push everything online (drafts, sent and their copy to Sent emails, ..) is just a pain in the *ss.
About the network point you made:
I am on a satellite dish connection and we only get so much data a month and then when we run out, we're lowered to 1 to 3 megs until our reset day.
But, a lot of people on the internet has told me that IMAP doesn't use a lot of data. I don't believe it though.
That's actually a good reason to use IMAP instead, as the normal behaviour is to download the headers and not the bodies. You only download the bodies on mails that you read, so unless you don't get any spam or if you actually read every single message that you get, your bandwidth usage will normally appreciably be lower with IMAP.
You make assumptions here that follow your use, and it's not at all mine - I do read (thus, download) - read or filter by body contents - nearly all emails I receive, and I receive a lot of spam that is also filtered on client-side.
Of course, you were definitely right by explaining there are different kinds of email uses. The OP would have to evaluate his own uses and see if IMAP fits better them.
Also, writing/sending at lot of emails, using drafts, will increase your network consumption, but that, also, depends on your own uses. A slow network user will be sensitive to that.
Regards,
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 13:03 +0100, wwp wrote:
That's actually a good reason to use IMAP instead, as the normal behaviour is to download the headers and not the bodies. You only download the bodies on mails that you read, so unless you don't get any spam or if you actually read every single message that you get, your bandwidth usage will normally appreciably be lower with IMAP.
You make assumptions here that follow your use, and it's not at all mine - I do read (thus, download) - read or filter by body contents - nearly all emails I receive, and I receive a lot of spam that is also filtered on client-side.
I do all my spam filtering server-side, though that would apply both to POP and IMAP.
[...]
Also, writing/sending at lot of emails, using drafts, will increase your network consumption, but that, also, depends on your own uses. A slow network user will be sensitive to that.
Most IMAP MUAs allow you to specify a local folder for drafts, if that's a concern.
poc
I am also wondering about this:
I have a web hosting package that offers email the works:
Website, FTP, Email, etc
I have my email set up to Forward via the Direct Admin panel to a Gmail address.
You open the Direct Admin panel
Then you click the " Fowarders" icon
and I hit CREATE FORWARDER
And then I set the forwards up like:
email address: Fedora@CWM030.com
Destination: EMAIL
and then added the gmail address I want my mail forwarded to
I just got a piece of spam mail that it looks like the forwarder caught it first before Spam Assassin caught it and it was forwarded to me and GMAIL caught it.
I am wanting to know, would gmail start considering all mail from my domain as spam if it occasionally puts a piece of mail in the spam folder? Or is DirectAdmin keeping the headers like they are and just redirecting the email to me?
Thanks, Chris
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 08:23 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I am wanting to know, would gmail start considering all mail from my domain as spam if it occasionally puts a piece of mail in the spam folder? Or is DirectAdmin keeping the headers like they are and just redirecting the email to me?
Few people *know* how gmail works internally, and as things get discovered, things get changed. So, there's no real answer to that.
Public wisdom (if you can use such a term) suggests that you add any addresses to its contacts list that you don't want gmail to think might be spam. You should also be able to train mail systems with some kind of "this is not spam" button on messages you want it to know are not spam.
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 08:23 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I am wanting to know, would gmail start considering all mail from my domain as spam if it occasionally puts a piece of mail in the spam folder? Or is DirectAdmin keeping the headers like they are and just redirecting the email to me?
additional...
Look at the messages going through your system, your mail client should have some sort of "view source" or "view all headers" option. You should be able to to see what headers are there. But generally, mail systems just add their own headers on top of the stack, only expect a spammer to start removing or forging ones.
Directly above your message content (what you type) are the first lot of headers, where you've set FROM, TO, SUBJECT, and something has added the DATE (either your mail client, or the first server it goes through if your mail client didn't). Each server that your mail passes through adds a "received" header to the top of the email, so they start stacking upwards (the last server to handle the mail will have their headers on the top).
You can think of this as traditional mail going through the postal service. You write the addresses on the envelope (and everyone takes it on faith that you wrote the correct "from" address). As it goes through the postal service they postmark it with their own stamp. Imagine if every postal office the letter passed through put their postmark stamp on top of the last one. They don't, but that's the sequence email goes through.
As far as spam detection goes, any thing that puts high credence on the TO and FROM addresses is going to have a high failure rate (because nearly all your mail will be addressed to you, and spammers usually fake the from addresses, though mail with TO the same as FROM usually is spam), it really needs to examine the mail servers that it passes through more than anything else. The first one it went through ought to get the heaviest scrutiny, as it would be the originator of any mail and should be stopping spam right at its own border. But spammers may send through fake servers first, so subsequent servers it passed through do need to be assessed, too.
Long before your own server forwarded the message to you, it's passed though other servers. Considering a large service like google assesses millions of emails, with thousands going through some servers that they'll database, the odd one or two through your own *ought* to be a teardrop in the ocean, comparatively speaking. But don't be complacent about that.
As I'd already said, put addresses into your contacts that you want considered friendly. Google should consider such mail less likely to be spam that any other address. Though I'd be inclined not to do that with your own personal address, spammers often use your own address as the FROM address to try and get past your spam filters.
Guessing how any service does it spam detection is guesswork, though some people do put effort into testing, and services keep changing their detection methods to keep pace. If I were spam detecting, there'd be a number of things I'd look at.
Assume I'm a large email service. I'd get millions of emails, I look at their content, lots of identical messages are very probably spam, so I increase their spam score. If users report spam to me, I'll further increase the spam score for other identical messages. But if I receive them sent to fake honeypot addresses, I immediately set their spam score to 100% and presume all identical messages (content-wise) will be spam and I can delete them without care, or at least mark them as confirmed spam. I also look at where they came from (the services it passed through, not the TO & FROM addresses), and those services become highly suspect. Then we start marking mail from them as possibly spam. If I see masses of possible spam from them, more than non-spam, we start scoring their mail even worse. But if all I ever see from those services is spam, they get bumped up to extremely suspect. Then we start managing mail from them, rejecting it, blacklisting the service (so they have to fix themselves to get unblacklisted). That's the basic idea.
For what it's worth, it's highly likely that when services give you user agreements that make you agree to them being able to look at message content, it's probably to allow their spam detection to assess your mail. Much more so than for other nefarious purposes.
And if I were running a public email service, I could also be looking at user's accounts. If you reply to a mail, add its details to your contact list, or move the mail to another folder, I could presume it wasn't spam, as you've interacted and kept it. But if you delete it, or ignore it (i.e. leave it idle in your inbox), I might assess it as being spammy, even if you didn't flag it as junk.
On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 15:40:16 -0500 John Mellor john.mellor@gmail.com wrote:
That's actually a good reason to use IMAP instead, as the normal behaviour is to download the headers and not the bodies. You only download the bodies on mails that you read, so unless you don't get any spam or if you actually read every single message that you get, your bandwidth usage will normally appreciably be lower with IMAP.
--
John Mellor
Interesting! I never would of thought of that!
Chris
On Fri, 2022-02-11 at 12:15 -0600, fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
Hi Ya'll,
I know that there are, to me, seems like A LOT of email clients for the linux world.
And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO CRINGE..... POP3 user.
Last week I tried TDE ( Trinity Desktop ) on Debian. and decided to give KMAIL a try... Big mistake... Importing my email into KMAIL caused the emails names to be changed from numbers ( because I used Claws before) to this weird string of letters and numbers. Therefore, I could not import my email back to CLAWS since I gave up and returned to Fedora and Gnome 3.
I plan on staying with Fedora and Gnome 3.
I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
I stopped using POP around 10 years ago. The biggest pro is that you can keep your mail on a server and access it from multiple clients. That includes organizing it in folders. You can't realistically do this in POP. The only "con" is again that you're keeping your mail on a server. However even that isn't a limitation as you can easily download it for off-line access. Good IMAP clients will do this automatically if you want.
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
Evolution. I also use Gmail, but have my Gmail accounts set up for IMAP access so I can see them in Evolution, or on the web client, or on my phone app.
poc
On 11Feb2022 12:15, fedora@cwm030.com fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
I use POP3 to collect email from my mailboxes and store it locally in my mail folders. That way all my email is here, and I can use what I like.
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
Mostly that your email is effectively in the cloud (even if you run the server yourself) and accessible from multiple readers and locations (eg from your phone, from your laptop, from your desktop).
Downside is that either your mail reader needs to maintain a local cache (most do anyway, if just for performance) or you can't read email when offline (eg on a train).
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
I read my email with mutt (a terminal based mail reader). It can talk directly to POP3 or IMAP if you want to leave your email upstream, but I use it locally on my laptop.
I'm on MacOS right now, but did the same on Linux when that was my desktop. And on Solaris etc etc before that.
Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 11:11:15 +1100 Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au wrote:
I read my email with mutt (a terminal based mail reader). It can talk directly to POP3 or IMAP if you want to leave your email upstream, but I use it locally on my laptop.
I've tried ALPINE before and I found it hard to use.
But I kinda liked it though.
I've always wanted to know, where does your POP email get stored if you're using a email client via the terminal?
Chris
On 13Feb2022 13:02, c. marlow fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 11:11:15 +1100 Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au wrote:
I read my email with mutt (a terminal based mail reader). It can talk directly to POP3 or IMAP if you want to leave your email upstream, but I use it locally on my laptop.
I've tried ALPINE before and I found it hard to use.
But I kinda liked it though.
I've always wanted to know, where does your POP email get stored if you're using a email client via the terminal?
Depends on the client. The client inherently has to download any email it doesn't have, so there will be some local storage. But in principle it can leave the email at the server.
POP3's not great for that - there's only one serverside mail folder, not much state (I think you can mark things as read maybe - or maybe that too is client side). _If_ you're keeping your email server side, IMAP is a better choice.
Most people using POP3 with mutt do not have mutt do the POP3 stuff - they collect it regularly from the server with a tool like fetchmail or getmail or my own "pop3" tool (which has a vast user base of 1, I think) and delivery it locally, either via something like procmail to spread the messages to suitable local folders or directly to some kind of spool or inbox folder for later refiling. Anyway, normally the collected messages are deleted from the server.
Then you just run mutt against your local folders.
Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au
On Mon Feb14'22 08:34:39AM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
From: Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 08:34:39 +1100 To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Kinda OT: Email clients and Email Management
On 13Feb2022 13:02, c. marlow fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 11:11:15 +1100 Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au wrote:
I read my email with mutt (a terminal based mail reader). It can talk directly to POP3 or IMAP if you want to leave your email upstream, but I use it locally on my laptop.
I've tried ALPINE before and I found it hard to use.
But I kinda liked it though.
I've always wanted to know, where does your POP email get stored if you're using a email client via the terminal?
Depends on the client. The client inherently has to download any email it doesn't have, so there will be some local storage. But in principle it can leave the email at the server.
POP3's not great for that - there's only one serverside mail folder, not much state (I think you can mark things as read maybe - or maybe that too is client side). _If_ you're keeping your email server side, IMAP is a better choice.
Most people using POP3 with mutt do not have mutt do the POP3 stuff - they collect it regularly from the server with a tool like fetchmail or getmail or my own "pop3" tool (which has a vast user base of 1, I think)
I am tempted to send your IPO soaring. What/how does your pop3 tool work? It seems to have only 4 lines of code, but I have no idea what it can do:-)
For the record, I use fetchmail on multiple accounts and then procmail. Three cheers for local email!
Ranjan
On 13Feb2022 18:15, Ranjan Maitra mlmaitra@gmx.com wrote:
I am tempted to send your IPO soaring. What/how does your pop3 tool work? It seems to have only 4 lines of code, but I have no idea what it can do:-)
"pip install cs.pop3". All the code's in there. https://pypi.org/project/cs.pop3/ https://hg.sr.ht/~cameron-simpson/css/browse/lib/python/cs/pop3.py?rev=tip
The script is just a stub to call the module c0ommand line mode.
For the record, I use fetchmail on multiple accounts and then procmail. Three cheers for local email!
Aye. It is the correct path.
For those liking IMAP, there are definitely tools to keep your IMAP in sync with a local set of folders, allowing local email and also IMAP access.
Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:00:20 +1100 Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au wrote:
For those liking IMAP, there are definitely tools to keep your IMAP in sync with a local set of folders, allowing local email and also IMAP access.
I am a Linux N00B.
I would love to know how to keep a copy of emails locally.
My Claws-Mail MH offline storage folders ( back when I was a POP user) currently stands at 720.3 Megs going all the way back to 2016!
Chris
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 08:02 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 15:00:20 +1100 Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au wrote:
For those liking IMAP, there are definitely tools to keep your IMAP in sync with a local set of folders, allowing local email and also IMAP access.
I am a Linux N00B.
I would love to know how to keep a copy of emails locally.
My Claws-Mail MH offline storage folders ( back when I was a POP user) currently stands at 720.3 Megs going all the way back to 2016!
On Evolution, this is a per-folder setting. You right-click on the folder and select "Copy folder content locally for offline access".
There's also a separate per-account setting: "Synchronize remote mail locally for all folders".
poc
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 08:34 +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:
POP3's not great for that - there's only one serverside mail folder, not much state (I think you can mark things as read maybe - or maybe that too is client side). _If_ you're keeping your email server side, IMAP is a better choice.
AFAIK POP servers don't keep any per-message state, nor can you download messages selectively, nor indeed download only the headers as you can with IMAP.
poc
On 13Feb2022 13:02, c. marlow fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 11:11:15 +1100 I've tried ALPINE before and I found it hard to use. But I kinda liked it though.
A friend of mine uses Alpine IIRC. Seems to like it.
Cheers, Cameron Simpson cs@cskk.id.au
On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:15:42PM -0600, fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
[ ... ]
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
Me! ... :)
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
Why should I need IMAP?
With `fetchmail', that I use, it seems I can even keep emails on the remote POP server - I usually just don't need that.
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
Mutt.
But I'd recommend clawsmail easily to anyone needing reliable email software.
The reasons I have mutt is simply because I've had it for decades; except for an `outlook' account I got sendmail working (I'm still wondering how I did that); and I really like the looks of email in a decently coloured terminal.
That clawsmail feature when setting up an email account - just one example - to find the server ports for an account by simply telling the program to find them - that's just wild ..
There's one thing I miss in clawsmail, and that is permanent mail logs, i.e. logs that are saved somewhere to disk after closing the program.
HTH Wolfgang
Chris:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
Why should I need IMAP?
With `fetchmail', that I use, it seems I can even keep emails on the remote POP server - I usually just don't need that.
Although you can leave mails on a server with POP3, and just read newer ones, it's not designed for that usage pattern. It can be very painful, and fail spectacularly. There's nothing stopping a server renumbering your messages, then there's no correlation between what you've already got and not yet seen.
Thanks for the heads-up, Tim ...
On Sat, Feb 12, 2022 at 10:21:47PM +1030, Tim via users wrote:
Chris:
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
Why should I need IMAP?
With `fetchmail', that I use, it seems I can even keep emails on the remote POP server - I usually just don't need that.
Although you can leave mails on a server with POP3, and just read newer ones, it's not designed for that usage pattern.
`man fetchmail':
------------- -k | --keep (Keyword: keep) Keep retrieved messages on the remote mailserver. Normally, messages are deleted from the folder on the mailserver after they have been retrieved. Specifying the keep option causes retrieved messages to remain in your folder on the mailserver. This option does not work with ETRN or ODMR. If used with POP3, it is recommended to also specify the --uidl option or uidl keyword. -------------
So it seems, leaving messages on the server after reading is not a problem for fetchmail, be it POP3 or whatever usage.
But yes: it might lead to problems ...
It can be very painful, and fail spectacularly. There's nothing stopping a server renumbering your messages, then there's no correlation between what you've already got and not yet seen.
Seems to be it. Again `man fetchmail':
---------- RETRIEVAL FAILURE MODES [ ... ]
A potential POP3 problem might be servers that insert messages in the middle of mailboxes (some VMS implementations of mail are rumored to do this). The fetchmail code assumes that new messages are appended to the end of the mailbox; when this is not true it may treat some old messages as new and vice versa. Using UIDL whilst setting fastuidl 0 might fix this, otherwise, consider switching to IMAP. ----------
The important part: "when this is not true it may treat some old messages as new and vice versa."
Which might mean (I'm guessing here), with another read on the POP3 server one might get already downloaded messages a 2nd time, while the new ones are not delivered, when running fetchmail again with the "keep" option ... might *hopefully* be fixed with the "--all" (something like "fetch everything") option while running fetchmail next time.
`man fetchmail' might be worth a read when considering POP3 or IMAP .. I really like the document.
I've used fetchmail most of the time in its default mode, namely deleting emails after retrieving them from the POP3 server. That's probably why I never, IIRC, became aware of any delivery problems with fetchmail while using it for ~15 or 20 yrs.
But true: setting up newly again my email accounts I might be using IMAP instead of POP3.
Thanks again, Tim! Wolfgang
Tim:
Although you can leave mails on a server with POP3, and just read newer ones, it's not designed for that usage pattern.
Wolfgang Pfeiffer:
`man fetchmail':
-k | --keep (Keyword: keep) Keep retrieved messages on the remote mailserver. Normally, messages are deleted from the folder on the mailserver after they have been retrieved. Specifying the keep option causes retrieved messages to remain in your folder on the mailserver. This option does not work with ETRN or ODMR. If used with POP3, it is recommended to also specify the --uidl option or uidl keyword.
So it seems, leaving messages on the server after reading is not a problem for fetchmail, be it POP3 or whatever usage.
But, and it's a very big but, you're entirely dependent on a POP3 server working in a way that's compatible with that (added) feature. It's a kludge hacked on, always remember that.
Even if you have a mail server that doesn't renumber all your messages between mail runs you need to parse a large list (if you keep messages on the inbox), and that gets significantly worse as it increases.
On my LAN mail server, using maildir folders accessed with IMAP, I have one mailing list folder with 19,734 messages in it, and it's a snap to work through it (load up the list, search through it, read a message, etc). And there's over a dozen folders with similarly huge numbers of mail in each of them. Trying to deal with a POP3 server with just a few hundred on it is painful, sometimes even just a few dozen, by comparison.
So what does happen when a POP3 mail server isn't really compatible with the feature?
Ordinarily messages are numbered as message 1 in the mailbox, message 2 in the mailbox, etc, as simply as that. You get sent a list of this each time, your mail client requests the numbers to be sent, the mail server deletes the ones it know it sent at the end of the mail run. If I delete message 4, then everything after it is renumbered. If it receives a new message and inserts it in the middle, rather than tack it on the end, all the other messages get renumbered. If the connection aborts part way through, most will not delete the messages you already downloaded. Suddenly, your mail program can't tell which messages are read, or which are which.
You can try using UIDL options, if supported, where the lists note down the message-id headers instead of just message #1, #2, #3, etc. But they're not guaranteed to be unique, permanent, or even present.
For instance, your message, that I'm replying to now, has this header
Message-ID: YgmCpEvNu9eGPe1T@localhost
The mail server is still dealing with message #1, #2, #3, etc., but now your mail client also (potentially) has some unique ID numbers to try and figure out that yesterday's message #14 is today's message #5.
You often find some important message gets left on the server and never downloaded. You're not even aware it exists. You may find that you have to fetch and delete all other messages to deal with it. You may find you can't fetch it, and can only delete it. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
If you've never used IMAP, then the nearest equivalent experience to it is virtually every webmail interface (Hotmail, Yahoo mail, gmail, etc.). Many of them use IMAP, but even if they don't, they work in the same way: Mail is on the server, you have an interface to the lists of it, you fetch individual messages when you click on them, you temporarily cache them locally (quicker to reload the same message, but it's not permanently kept locally). Sometimes going from one message to another is quick, sometimes it's slow either because of networking issues or their server is inefficient.
IMAP *can* be tedious, if every new message you read involves reconnecting to the server, negotiating that connection, checking for new messages, issuing fetch instructions, queuing every action one after another (i.e. half-baked software written by people who've not fully thought through how to do it properly, and don't care).
But, it doesn't have to be. If they'd done things intelligently, keeping an active connection to the server during your session (only timing out after a long time), simultaneously handling new message additions to the lists, while you do what you do, sending commands in parallel.
On 2/11/22 13:15, fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
Hi Ya'll, > > I know that there are, to me, seems like A LOT of email clients
for > the linux world. > > And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new > email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO > CRINGE..... POP3 user. > > Last week I tried TDE ( Trinity Desktop ) on Debian. and decided to > give KMAIL a try... Big mistake... Importing my email into KMAIL > caused the emails names to be changed from numbers ( because I used > Claws before) to this weird string of letters and numbers. Therefore, > I could not import my email back to CLAWS since I gave up and > returned to Fedora and Gnome 3. > > I plan on staying with Fedora and Gnome 3. > > I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I > find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up > setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there > >
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP? > > And what program do you use on Fedora for your email? Chris, as one of the contributors to IMAP, it still took me years to make the jump and I am glad I did.
IMAP is just more functional than POP ever was with better security features; though Peter Resnick of Qualcomm would regal us with stories of maintaining Eudora for their CEO for years after there were other better choices, but he started on Eudora, and it was Qualcomm's product and he was going to keep using it... Worked for me!
I switched all those years ago from Eudora to Thunderbird, still POP. There was a nice utility to convert Eudora mail folders to that used by Thunderbird. In fact just last year an old friend was FINALLY getting of Eudora and asked if anyone knew how, so I dug the program out of my archives for him.
Over all these years I have been using Thunderbird with all its warts. But then really they all have warts.
Oh and just updated my wife from Thunderbird on XP to Thunderbird on Win10, and she is complaining on how things are different...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:43:07 -0500 Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
IMAP is just more functional than POP ever was with better security features; though Peter Resnick of Qualcomm would regal us with stories of maintaining Eudora for their CEO for years after there were other better choices, but he started on Eudora, and it was Qualcomm's product and he was going to keep using it... Worked for me!
I noticed that IMAP is SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW because Claws checks every folder for new mail, when my email is only filtered when I launch Claws.
I did find a way to right click on a folder and go to properties and uncheck " CHECK FOR MAIL"... So basically Claws skips over checking that folder for new mail.
I switched all those years ago from Eudora to Thunderbird, still POP. There was a nice utility to convert Eudora mail folders to that used by Thunderbird. In fact just last year an old friend was FINALLY getting of Eudora and asked if anyone knew how, so I dug the program out of my archives for him.
Over all these years I have been using Thunderbird with all its warts. But then really they all have warts.
I don't think that I could use TB... I like the MH file format, less chance of corruption.
Oh and just updated my wife from Thunderbird on XP to Thunderbird on Win10, and she is complaining on how things are different...
Good lord!!!!Your wife was still using Windows XP and had XP hooked up to the internet?
Chris
On 2/14/22 11:01, c. marlow wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:43:07 -0500 Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
IMAP is just more functional than POP ever was with better security features; though Peter Resnick of Qualcomm would regal us with stories of maintaining Eudora for their CEO for years after there were other better choices, but he started on Eudora, and it was Qualcomm's product and he was going to keep using it... Worked for me!
I noticed that IMAP is SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW because Claws checks every folder for new mail, when my email is only filtered when I launch Claws.
I did find a way to right click on a folder and go to properties and uncheck " CHECK FOR MAIL"... So basically Claws skips over checking that folder for new mail.
I only check my inbox for new mail. I don't use any sieves or other tools to move incoming mail to specific folders, and I leave that to Thunderbird. Actually I have no special folders on the server. All filtered mail is moved to local folders.
I switched all those years ago from Eudora to Thunderbird, still POP. There was a nice utility to convert Eudora mail folders to that used by Thunderbird. In fact just last year an old friend was FINALLY getting of Eudora and asked if anyone knew how, so I dug the program out of my archives for him.
Over all these years I have been using Thunderbird with all its warts. But then really they all have warts.
I don't think that I could use TB... I like the MH file format, less chance of corruption.
Only corruptions I have had for years has been in the index. These are easily rebuilt when they go bad.
Oh and just updated my wife from Thunderbird on XP to Thunderbird on Win10, and she is complaining on how things are different...
Good lord!!!!Your wife was still using Windows XP and had XP hooked up to the internet?
And what it took to get some of her apps working! But she was never really "connected". She is behind 2 firewalls and only opens graphics and other attachments from known sources, and then Comodo filtered for checking content. For her limited web access, she is behind a proxy firewall and really does very little online. Just not her interest/style; I do almost all the family online shopping from my Fedora system. Actually it was the need to get a newer Firefox to run embedded code from some banking sites that finally forced the hand for her to be willing to update!
She is complaining about loosing the XP Search app. It is her go-to tool to find whatever doc she needs to work on. File Manager search is just strange. "Why do I have to put asterisks in my search string. I never had to do that before!" And don't get me started on the Windows 10 default picture program(s). I am going to have to search around and see if I can get something worth her time to use. I spent over an hour Sunday, getting a bunch of pics printed as she wanted them; got to be a better tool than what M$ supplies (I use gthumb for most of my pic printing).
And what it took me to turn off all the M$ ad stuff all over the desktop. "We own you..." Of course turning off Firefox and google ad stuff, even with Adblock Plus was a pain.
At least Office 2003 installed OK. ;)
But Noteworthy Composer setup just would not run. It is a Win98 (or was that Win95?) app that is her main use app for her tutoring. Finally I worked out I could just copy the whole program folder for the XP system over to the Win10 system and it works. Whew! She never wanted to learn the new version's methods even when we moved to XP! "Works well enough for me."
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:48:47 -0500 Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I only check my inbox for new mail. I don't use any sieves or other tools to move incoming mail to specific folders, and I leave that to Thunderbird. Actually I have no special folders on the server. All filtered mail is moved to local folders.
I tried that and it seemed like Claws wasn't moving everything to the local folders.. But, I think that was my mistake though.. I used the MOVE command instead of COPY command.
So I wound up changing my filters to
IF: ALL MAIL to DOMAIN ACCOUNT
COPY TO >> ChristophersMail ( That's my local MH folders )
I switched all those years ago from Eudora to Thunderbird, still POP. There was a nice utility to convert Eudora mail folders to that used by Thunderbird. In fact just last year an old friend was FINALLY getting of Eudora and asked if anyone knew how, so I dug the program out of my archives for him.
Actually, if in the previous paragraph you said you don't have any special folders on the mail server, but your emails are moved to the local folders, that basically means you have your account set up as IMAP and then a rule set up to copy or move the emails from the IMAP server to LOCAL FOLDERS? Right?
Only corruptions I have had for years has been in the index. These are easily rebuilt when they go bad.
Ohh... I've had TB lose my email 2 or 3 times... I don't trust TB... But that was after a nuke and pave and restoring my email back in /home.
Chris
On 2/14/22 11:59, c. marlow wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:48:47 -0500 Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I only check my inbox for new mail. I don't use any sieves or other tools to move incoming mail to specific folders, and I leave that to Thunderbird. Actually I have no special folders on the server. All filtered mail is moved to local folders.
I tried that and it seemed like Claws wasn't moving everything to the local folders.. But, I think that was my mistake though.. I used the MOVE command instead of COPY command.
ALL my filter rules use move, rarely copy.
So I wound up changing my filters to
IF: ALL MAIL to DOMAIN ACCOUNT
COPY TO >> ChristophersMail ( That's my local MH folders )
I switched all those years ago from Eudora to Thunderbird, still POP. There was a nice utility to convert Eudora mail folders to that used by Thunderbird. In fact just last year an old friend was FINALLY getting of Eudora and asked if anyone knew how, so I dug the program out of my archives for him.
Actually, if in the previous paragraph you said you don't have any special folders on the mail server, but your emails are moved to the local folders, that basically means you have your account set up as IMAP and then a rule set up to copy or move the emails from the IMAP server to LOCAL FOLDERS? Right?
Yes. I rather like having them local. Works nicely when I would be flying and needed my mail. I suppose I could have kept everything both on the server and local server copy, but then I only use the one notebook. I rarely need to access mail from another system. Then I use Roundcube on my server and only have inbox and sent.
Only corruptions I have had for years has been in the index. These are easily rebuilt when they go bad.
Ohh... I've had TB lose my email 2 or 3 times... I don't trust TB... But that was after a nuke and pave and restoring my email back in /home.
So far has not happened and I try that it doesn't!
And been using TB since back before Fedora, when I ran Centos on my notebook...
Well.. I am reaping what I sew...
I am starting to regret the change to IMAP.
I just told Claws to move two emails from my cell phone company to another folder / label whatever you want to call it.. And the emails are not in that folder.
I even went online to gmail.com and did a search for 2 words that were in the subject line.. POOF...GONE.... No where to be found.
Chris
On Mon Feb14'22 01:10:27PM, c. marlow wrote:
From: "c. marlow" fedora@cwm030.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:10:27 -0600 To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Kinda OT: Email clients and Email Management
Well.. I am reaping what I sew...
I am starting to regret the change to IMAP.
I just told Claws to move two emails from my cell phone company to another folder / label whatever you want to call it.. And the emails are not in that folder.
I even went online to gmail.com and did a search for 2 words that were in the subject line.. POOF...GONE.... No where to be found.
I had similar issues with IMAP (for 2-3 hours) when I tried to move to IMAP on a whim, and then, discretion being the better part of valor, moved right back to POP3.
I am pretty certain that I was not using IMAP correctly, but decided to stick to POP3 because it served my needs. I leave e-mail on the server because I pull it from several places, and then I use rsync between the machines to keep all my local mails in sync. Serves my needs well and I am pretty happy about it.
Best wishes, Ranjan
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:21:37 -0600 Ranjan Maitra mlmaitra@gmx.com wrote:
I had similar issues with IMAP (for 2-3 hours) when I tried to move to IMAP on a whim, and then, discretion being the better part of valor, moved right back to POP3.
I am pretty certain that I was not using IMAP correctly, but decided to stick to POP3 because it served my needs. I leave e-mail on the server because I pull it from several places, and then I use rsync between the machines to keep all my local mails in sync. Serves my needs well and I am pretty happy about it.
It's tempting!!!
Chris
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:00:15 -0500 Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
ALL my filter rules use move, rarely copy.
I just got done changing hosting companies from InterServer to HostGator, due to I.S. not sending me all of the emails from the lists that I am on.
Like for instance.. I would see SO AND SO REPLIED TO XXXX:
But I wouldn't get the original starter email from xxx.
But anyways, I have the same set up like you right now.. Except I manually move my email off of each account.
I am just afraid that using a MOVE command filter could cause some emails to come up missing or something like that.
I will have to test that out and let you know.
Chris
On Thu, 2022-02-17 at 12:05 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I am just afraid that using a MOVE command filter could cause some emails to come up missing or something like that.
There's always this approach: Download all mails to a mail spool file. Input that file into your new mail system. After all is done, delete the spool.
There are tools for migrating mail. Some mail clients even have them built in.
So I've set my email up as IMAP...
I've got kind of a special set up.
Call me frugal.. Lol
I set up CPANEL to forward my email to a brand new gmail address that I made. Only because I kinda like the whole gmail " label " system now.
HostGator offers Google Workspaces but I don't want to have to move 5 accounts to the new GW accounts and plus, just using HostGator's default email service, I get unlimited accounts vs having to pay for each one with GW.
But then I started thinking this morning, WHY did I move to IMAP? I only check my email on my computer. I had the new account set up on my phone, but it got annoying to change accounts every time I open the gmail app from the free account that i've had since 2015 and don't use for anything to the new account for my domain. So I wound up removing the new account off of my phone.
But then again.. My MH folders are getting ridiculously large... 845.8 MB and that is taking up A LOT of my 20 gig storage with NextCloud since I back up my MH folders nightly.
Chris
On Sat, 2022-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
HostGator offers Google Workspaces but I don't want to have to move 5 accounts to the new GW accounts and plus, just using HostGator's default email service, I get unlimited accounts vs having to pay for each one with GW.
But then I started thinking this morning, WHY did I move to IMAP? I only check my email on my computer. I had the new account set up on my phone, but it got annoying to change accounts every time I open the gmail app from the free account that i've had since 2015 and don't use for anything to the new account for my domain. So I wound up removing the new account off of my phone.
You could probably consolidate your gmail accounts (if you wanted to), or at least pull mail from one to the other (again if you wanted to).
Over the years I've accumulated a few email accounts, but long ago realised various problems with that: Choosing which address to tell to someone to contact me via, using email clients which didn't automatically reply using the same account details that the message came from, dealing with losing accounts I didn't want to lose (closing ISPs, etc), and the more accounts the more spam you receive.
Of course there's arguments for the opposite: Erroneous spam detection can ruin an account. Services having technical gremlins don't stop you sending from a different account. It's useful to have different business and personal accounts, if you want to be able to dispose of a business, or have a business partner check business mail for you. It can be useful to have a mailing list account with filtering that ignores anything that didn't come from the mailing list (that's the one anti-spam technique I still trust to use).
IMAP does let your mail get properly flagged as read, replied to, etc, even if you do only use it in one device. Remembering that /that/ one device may go through several software updates over time, so local handling of that kind of thing can get royally stuffed up.
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:24:27 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
IMAP does let your mail get properly flagged as read, replied to, etc, even if you do only use it in one device. Remembering that /that/ one device may go through several software updates over time, so local handling of that kind of thing can get royally stuffed up.
Well, to keep that from happening, I do, do nightly backups of my "CLAWS" folder in /home/chris just to be safe.
So, I am guessing that you're saying that IMAP is better even though its very painfully slow on my connection?
Chris
On Sun, 2022-02-20 at 08:28 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:24:27 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
IMAP does let your mail get properly flagged as read, replied to, etc, even if you do only use it in one device. Remembering that /that/ one device may go through several software updates over time, so local handling of that kind of thing can get royally stuffed up.
Well, to keep that from happening, I do, do nightly backups of my "CLAWS" folder in /home/chris just to be safe.
I don't do any backing up of email, since it's all on the IMAP server and they have full-time admins who I trust to know what they're doing. That's up to you of course.
So, I am guessing that you're saying that IMAP is better even though its very painfully slow on my connection?
Again, your use case is your own, but you might want to consider not synching the IMAP mail locally. In my own case that would be pointless, but YMMV.
poc
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:24:27 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
I forgot to answer the other parts of your email.. OOPS!
You could probably consolidate your gmail accounts (if you wanted to), or at least pull mail from one to the other (again if you wanted to).
using Gmail's fetch setting under webmail settings?
Over the years I've accumulated a few email accounts, but long ago realised various problems with that: Choosing which address to tell to someone to contact me via, using email clients which didn't automatically reply using the same account details that the message came from, dealing with losing accounts I didn't want to lose (closing ISPs, etc), and the more accounts the more spam you receive.
Yesss, I use to have that problem too!
I've weeded out quite a few addresses over the last year, of accounts that I wasn't using anymore
Chris
Tim:
You could probably consolidate your gmail accounts (if you wanted to), or at least pull mail from one to the other (again if you wanted to).
c. marlow:
using Gmail's fetch setting under webmail settings?
Sounds right. I haven't explored their interface for ages, to see where they hid everything.
That's another bugbear with webmail interfaces; they keep redesigning things on you, then you have to go hunting for something you need. Sure, mail clients do that, too, but far less often (in my experience), and usually their interfaces seem more logically organised.
On Sun Feb20'22 08:24:27PM, Community Support for Fedora Users wrote:
From: Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 20:24:27 +1030 To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Cc: Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Kinda OT: Email clients and Email Management
On Sat, 2022-02-19 at 09:45 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
HostGator offers Google Workspaces but I don't want to have to move 5 accounts to the new GW accounts and plus, just using HostGator's default email service, I get unlimited accounts vs having to pay for each one with GW.
But then I started thinking this morning, WHY did I move to IMAP? I only check my email on my computer. I had the new account set up on my phone, but it got annoying to change accounts every time I open the gmail app from the free account that i've had since 2015 and don't use for anything to the new account for my domain. So I wound up removing the new account off of my phone.
You could probably consolidate your gmail accounts (if you wanted to), or at least pull mail from one to the other (again if you wanted to).
Over the years I've accumulated a few email accounts, but long ago realised various problems with that: Choosing which address to tell to someone to contact me via, using email clients which didn't automatically reply using the same account details that the message came from, dealing with losing accounts I didn't want to lose (closing ISPs, etc), and the more accounts the more spam you receive.
Excellent points. I have tried to address the following by having four email accounts. One provided by my employer, and what I call my "main account". Has to do with work-related things and I use fetchmail to fetch email. I have a second email address for mailing lists, that I never check or fetch from, but use to email to mailing lists (yes, this one). The third email address is for everybody else but family, and I use that for everything unrelated to work and family. I use fetchmail to fetch email, but do not bother with fetching spam. GMX.com has a helpful feature where they summarize all the headers of messages marked spam and email me everyday and I use that to unmark spam as needed. The last email address is for family and even messages to spam there are attempted to be fetched, but the email address is not given out, and stays within the family.
Works for me.
Ranjan
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:02:27 -0600 Ranjan Maitra mlmaitra@gmx.com wrote:
I have a second email address for mailing lists, that I never check or fetch from, but use to email to mailing lists (yes, this one).
I am confused, if you don't check or fetch from this GMX account, thennnn how do you know when people have answered you?
Chris
On Sun Feb20'22 04:30:14PM, c. marlow wrote:
From: "c. marlow" fedora@cwm030.com Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:30:14 -0600 To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Reply-To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Kinda OT: Email clients and Email Management
On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:02:27 -0600 Ranjan Maitra mlmaitra@gmx.com wrote:
I have a second email address for mailing lists, that I never check or fetch from, but use to email to mailing lists (yes, this one).
I am confused, if you don't check or fetch from this GMX account, thennnn how do you know when people have answered you?
Right, sorry, I also have one of those other email addresses subscribed to the mailing list. So I essentially read email sent there.
Ranjan
Chris _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Ranjan Maitra mlmaitra@gmx.com wrote:
I have a second email address for mailing lists, that I never check or fetch from, but use to email to mailing lists (yes, this one).
c. marlow:
I am confused, if you don't check or fetch from this GMX account, thennnn how do you know when people have answered you?
They may be reading off the website (the mailing list, or GMX's).
On Sun, 2022-02-20 at 16:30 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I am confused, if you don't check or fetch from this GMX account, thennnn how do you know when people have answered you?
Oops, didn't finish before I hit send. They could also do what I do:
Subscribe to the list with two addresses. Have list mail sent to one address. Reply on the other.
I did that because I want to avoid receiving spam and private messages from strangers on the list. Twenty-plus years of being on mailing lists has taught me that they're full of nutters, and a prime cause of masses of spam. And that automatic anti-spam systems always screw up.
I'd do it all (send and receive) through an external service, but they tend to erroneously reject list mail as spam, so I receive the messages on a service that doesn't do that, it only accepts mail from the list, and does no other filtering. Since I don't want that service to get spammed (not having to manage that traffic in any way), I avoid exposing its address by posting to the list from another address that rejects all mail.
If you use the usual public services, gmail, yahoo, etc., they all have uncontrollable and fallible anti-spam systems. It means you have to continually check your junk mail folder for false positives (so what's the damn point in doing any filtering?). Or, you don't bother checking, and you seriously piss someone off who's been trying to contact you, or simply miss out on solutions to problems and work, completely unaware that you're missing some mail.
On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:37:25 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
I did that because I want to avoid receiving spam and private messages from strangers on the list. Twenty-plus years of being on mailing lists has taught me that they're full of nutters, and a prime cause of masses of spam. And that automatic anti-spam systems always screw up.
I should of done that... I am on a mailing list that for some reason I wasn't getting that person's messages and could only see what they said when someone replied to them.. That would of worked perfectly in that situation.
I changed hosting providers.. I think that fixed it.....
I'd do it all (send and receive) through an external service, but they tend to erroneously reject list mail as spam, so I receive the messages on a service that doesn't do that, it only accepts mail from the list, and does no other filtering. Since I don't want that service to get spammed (not having to manage that traffic in any way), I avoid exposing its address by posting to the list from another address that rejects all mail.
I dont mind people coming to me OL... Until they say mean and hateful things in their email. And then, you get a special filter set up in your honor that has Claws silently delete your emails and not let me know that you sent me something :)
If you use the usual public services, gmail, yahoo, etc., they all have uncontrollable and fallible anti-spam systems. It means you have to continually check your junk mail folder for false positives (so what's the damn point in doing any filtering?). Or, you don't bother checking, and you seriously piss someone off who's been trying to contact you, or simply miss out on solutions to problems and work, completely unaware that you're missing some mail.
You can turn off Gmail's spam filtering:
*Create Filter*
in:spam ( never send to spam)
label:spam ( never send to spam)
is:spam ( never send to spam)
And for an extra bonus:
TO = myaddress@gmail.com ( never send to spam)
======================= Thanks, Chris
Please send *ALL* off list conversations to Chris@CWM030.com Otherwise, I will never see it.
On Mon, 2022-02-21 at 07:05 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I dont mind people coming to me OL... Until they say mean and hateful things in their email. And then, you get a special filter set up in your honor that has Claws silently delete your emails and not let me know that you sent me something :)
I don't know about other countries, but it's actually illegal to send harassing mail, there's nothing that excludes email from that law. Mind you, unless it was death threats you're unlikely to get anyone to take action on it.
I just decided that I'd had enough of it, and wasn't going to deal with any more. People can contact me off-list, but either they mention it on-list and I reply (if I want to), or they do some sleuthing to figure out how to contact me.
But it's not just harassing mail, some people are just plain nuts and you can do without having to deal with the weirder stuff they talk about when they're not in the public eye. Many years ago I responded back to a mailing list to a stupid private email, just so everyone could see what they were like.
Tim:
If you use the usual public services, gmail, yahoo, etc., they all have uncontrollable and fallible anti-spam systems. It means you have to continually check your junk mail folder for false positives
You can turn off Gmail's spam filtering:
Over time there's been discussions about that, but consensus was that you can't. Attempting to do so my throttle it somewhat, but not completely disable it.
While it makes sense to have it detect mail from false addresses and spam-bin them, it's overzealous and fallible at coming to that conclusion. There's a lot of genuine mail that doesn't meet their criteria for authenticated.
List mail often confused it, and there's a plethora of service providers that don't authenticate their user's mail as being verified. When you send through a SMTP server that requires you to log in, and you're a customer that somehow they've previously verified your identity, they should be flagging the mail as it goes through in a way that other servers trust. Not all do. And, of course the spam houses will fake that trust, anyway, for their own posts.
And for an extra bonus:
TO = myaddress@gmail.com ( never send to spam)
I had tried that kind of thing before, but other non-user- controllable anti-spam filters were in effect *before* user customisable ones.
While that may have changed, I kind of doubt it.
For everyone:
Just to follow up I wound up going back to POP and setting my email up like Robert Moskowitz
I have Claws MOVE the emails to my local folders.
I could of just had CPANEL forward all 5 of my email accounts to the brand new gmail account, set that brand new gmail account up in Claws as a POP account and then download everything that way I don't have to wait for EACH IMAP account to update and then move the email to the local folders.
I guess that's something to think about... I am trying to compensate being stuck on a slow satallite dish connection and use as little data as I can since I only get 30 gigs a month and i've already ran out for the month with 18 days left in my billing cycle. OYE VEY!
Oh, And SAT DISH connections ARE EXPENSIVE!!!!!!
======================= Thanks, Chris
Please send *ALL* off list conversations to Chris@CWM030.com Otherwise, I will never see it.
I could of just had CPANEL forward all 5 of my email accounts to the brand new gmail account, set that brand new gmail account up in Claws as a POP account and then download everything that way I don't have to wait for EACH IMAP account to update and then move the email to the local folders.
I guess that's something to think about... I am trying to compensate being stuck on a slow satallite dish connection and use as little data as I can since I only get 30 gigs a month and i've already ran out for the month with 18 days left in my billing cycle. OYE VEY!
Just ignore this ^^
That was just a ADD / ADHD moment... lol...
ADD is a CURSE I SWEAR! lol
Chris
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 11:48 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I only check my inbox for new mail. I don't use any sieves or other tools to move incoming mail to specific folders, and I leave that to Thunderbird. Actually I have no special folders on the server. All filtered mail is moved to local folders.
On Wed, 2022-03-09 at 11:48 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
If I create a rule in Evolution:
MATCHES ALL RULES BELOW ACCOUNT: AccountNameHere APPLIES TO ALL MAIL MOVE TO: "INBOX ON THIS PC"
I don't understand the purpose of that rule. New mail will always go into your inbox. Are you moving things from one inbox to another inbox?
But then to further filter my email:
say bill@abccompany.com MOVE TO " BILLS ON THIS PC"
I have to make that 1st rule be at the bottom of the list of filters and then bill@abccompany.com MOVE TO " BILLS" first otherwise
MATCHES ALL RULES BELOW ACCOUNT: AccountNameHere APPLIES TO ALL MAIL MOVE TO: "INBOX ON THIS PC"
Doesn't work.
The logic of this escapes me, too. You want to move something away, then move it back again?
For what it's worth, I don't see the value in doing filters upon filters, just do things once. It's quicker and simpler to debug.
On Thu, 2022-03-10 at 12:51 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
I don't understand the purpose of that rule. New mail will always go into your inbox. Are you moving things from one inbox to another inbox?
Someone on this list replied and said they set their accounts up as IMAP, but move their email to local folders via rules.
So what I was trying to do was MOVE all of the emails from the inbox to the local folders
And then sort them into their appropriate folders under local folders..
But I gave up on that, I have been using IMAP for the last couple of days now :(
Now, I just have Evolution sort the emails into folders on the IMAP server as they come in.
============ Thanks, Chris
Please send all off list messages to chris@cwm030.com
Fedora 35 Gnome 3
On Fri, 2022-03-11 at 06:18 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
On Thu, 2022-03-10 at 12:51 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
I don't understand the purpose of that rule. New mail will always go into your inbox. Are you moving things from one inbox to another inbox?
Someone on this list replied and said they set their accounts up as IMAP, but move their email to local folders via rules.
So what I was trying to do was MOVE all of the emails from the inbox to the local folders
And then sort them into their appropriate folders under local folders..
But I gave up on that, I have been using IMAP for the last couple of days now :(
Now, I just have Evolution sort the emails into folders on the IMAP server as they come in.
That's what I do. It simplifies things rather than having two filter regimes fighting each other, though there may be some use cases where Evo's filtering would be a better fit.
poc
Chris:
Now, I just have Evolution sort the emails into folders on the IMAP server as they come in.
POC:
That's what I do. It simplifies things rather than having two filter regimes fighting each other, though there may be some use cases where Evo's filtering would be a better fit.
Two sets of filtering rules nearly always exposes something you haven't thought of.
I never managed to get Evolution to quickly do filtering, it was always slower than anything else I tried (even my old 16 MHz Amiga on dialup was quicker at fetching and sorting). It didn't matter what headers I used, nor how the mail was stored.
Eventually I decided to bite the bullet and figure out how to use sieve, especially as I have one IMAP server, but access it using several mail clients on different computers. Filtering just happens in the background, all the time now, as it comes in rather than only when I use an email program.
Now I just use Evolutions rules to resort a few emails still in my inbox after they've become read (archiving rules, so to speak). Speed doesn't matter then.
On 3/9/22 09:48, c. marlow wrote:
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 11:48 -0500, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I only check my inbox for new mail. I don't use any sieves or other tools to move incoming mail to specific folders, and I leave that to Thunderbird. Actually I have no special folders on the server. All filtered mail is moved to local folders.
--
A pointer about email messages. That previous line with "--" is a standard marker that indicates that anything following it is part of the signature. Thunderbird greys out anything after and when replying will automatically remove it. I had to highlight the text before replying to get it here. That's why it's a bit mangled. Other clients likely do the same.
Speaking of that Robert..... I am having a issue: If I create a rule in Evolution: MATCHES ALL RULES BELOW ACCOUNT: AccountNameHere APPLIES TO ALL MAIL MOVE TO: "INBOX ON THIS PC" But then to further filter my email: say bill@abccompany.com MOVE TO " BILLS ON THIS PC" I have to make that 1st rule be at the bottom of the list of filters and then bill@abccompany.com MOVE TO " BILLS" first otherwise MATCHES ALL RULES BELOW ACCOUNT: AccountNameHere APPLIES TO ALL MAIL MOVE TO: "INBOX ON THIS PC" Doesn't work.
Tim, you replied to this email previously. What did Evolution do with it when you tried to reply?
e On 3/21/22 15:55, Samuel Sieb wrote:
That previous line with "--" is a standard marker that indicates that anything following it is part of the signature.
To be more accurate, the .sig seperator is "-- " on an otherwise empty line, and the space is part of the string. If you're leaving it out, you're not using a proper separator.
On Mon, 2022-03-21 at 14:55 -0700, Samuel Sieb wrote:
Tim, you replied to this email previously. What did Evolution do with it when you tried to reply?
Just confirming that you're referring to his email with message id: 4cd89656f28227f26e2609705bc02285164f4ce2.camel@cwm030.com (though that may not be the ID that his system creates).
If I hit reply, the whole thing got quoted, including the list footer.
I notice it's not a text email:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
I wonder if that fools evolution's replying? Replying to most textual messages (plain text or HTML) does trim off signatures as expected (ones not from this list). And so far, every base64 encoded message that I've found with a signature doesn't get it trimmed of.
For what it's worth, I've found almost all messages from this list to be base64 encoded (even when I can see no good reason why). I managed to find one or two that aren't, and their signatures don't get stripped off, either.
In the past, when it came to list mail, and trying out various different email clients, some only regard the last "dash dash space carriage-return" signature separater on the page as the one to strip off, others picked on the first one. The clients that promote top posting (and endless stacking of messages upon reply upon reply upon reply) often don't strip signatures at all, nor have signature separators in their own postings.
So, I'm just used to either selecting only the portion of an email I want to reply to, or always hand-editing the message I reply to. It's been a very long time since I found Evolution has presented a blank page when I tried to reply to someone's badly formatted message. Replying to HTML used to be a pain, you'd try to split someone's stream-of-conciousness three-pages-as-one-paragraph posting into a real paragraph, and it'd delete the whole block of text. I'd have to copy and paste into a real plain text editor, like vim, to remove all the non-textual crapola, first.
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 10:01 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I noticed that IMAP is SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW because Claws checks every folder for new mail, when my email is only filtered when I launch Claws.
Checking every folder not a property of IMAP but of how you choose to access it.
poc
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 17:32:30 +0000 Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 10:01 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
I noticed that IMAP is SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW because Claws checks every folder for new mail, when my email is only filtered when I launch Claws.
Checking every folder not a property of IMAP but of how you choose to access it.
poc
No lie... Claws does go down the line and checks every folder when you set the account up.
Chris
Hi Chris,
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:01:31 -0600 "c. marlow" fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:43:07 -0500 Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
IMAP is just more functional than POP ever was with better security features; though Peter Resnick of Qualcomm would regal us with stories of maintaining Eudora for their CEO for years after there were other better choices, but he started on Eudora, and it was Qualcomm's product and he was going to keep using it... Worked for me!
I noticed that IMAP is SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW because Claws checks every folder for new mail, when my email is only filtered when I launch Claws.
If you find CM slow here, don't try TB! ;-)
[snip]
I switched all those years ago from Eudora to Thunderbird, still POP. There was a nice utility to convert Eudora mail folders to that used by Thunderbird. In fact just last year an old friend was FINALLY getting of Eudora and asked if anyone knew how, so I dug the program out of my archives for him.
Over all these years I have been using Thunderbird with all its warts. But then really they all have warts.
I don't think that I could use TB... I like the MH file format, less chance of corruption.
[snip]
TB has support for the MH file format. This has to be tuned when you create the account. Search the web!
Regards,
On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 20:32:58 +0100 wwp subscript@free.fr wrote:
If you find CM slow here, don't try TB! ;-)
[snip]
It's not Claws thats slow, its IMAP.
TB has support for the MH file format. This has to be tuned when you create the account. Search the web!
And is still currently considered in development and are advised to NOT use that format for right now in TB unless you know how to fix problems that come up while using the MH format in TB.
Chris
On Mon, 2022-02-14 at 14:26 -0600, c. marlow wrote:
It's not Claws thats slow, its IMAP.
Well, to be fair, it's not IMAP, but: Your network, their network, their mail server, how you use your mail client, and how their server and your client uses IMAP. It can be done efficiently, but some programmers don't even attempt it. On an inefficient system (overall) it's not going to be nice. Using POP3 *hides* that, by dragging all your mail in locally.
As far as I'm concerned, after some 25+ years of doing email, if you want *local* storage, speed, and efficiency; and you don't want pain when keeping mail long term across installation of new releases and software; you need to run your own email server, drag your mail into it with some tool that periodically fetches your mail, and read your mail from your own server.
And, in my opinion, mail servers are much better at handling local mail storage than mail clients are. Likewise for filtering.
On my system:
Fetchmail drags in my mail, from all my services, every 9 minutes. And this is easier to configure for all the different mail servers than doing so in a mail client (and doing it again after updates and new installs). It also drags in mails for other users at 11 minutes and 13 minutes, deliberately using different intervals.
Dovecot (mail server) stores my mail locally.
Dovecot uses mailsieve to filter *some* of my mail (I'm doing an experiment about what's most convenient). e.g. Fedora mailing list gets filtered into a Fedora mailing list folder, likewise for some other mailing lists. But low-volume things stay in my inbox.
Evolution is my mail client, using IMAP to access my mail server. I don't have it set up to romp through all my folders when I start the program, I don't have it synchronising, I don't have it filtering my mail (it's always been painfully slow at that), I don't have it checking for new mail all the time. I do set the message lists to only display the last 5 days mail (older mail is there, but hidden out of the way until I need to hunt something down).
When I go to read mail, I look in my inbox, it takes only a few seconds to see that I've some new email to me, maybe a couple of spams a week (so I manually delete them, and don't have to manually check on a spam folder for false positives). Some of that mail I want to keep for later I'll manually drag over to another folder. Some of it I want to keep I'll semi-automatically file into other folders - I select all mail listed in the inbox, or just the ones I've wanted to do something with, and manually run the filter on it that will move read messages from certain places. This way unread messages don't suddenly disappear on me. e.g. I see my bills waiting in my inbox until I deal with them, then *after* they're read they can get filed away for record keeping.
Then I'll check on the already filtered mail. I'll pop over to the Fedora mailing list folder. It's showing the last 5 days of received mail, hiding the rest. The list of mail shows up in a snap. I'll look through the unread messages to see what interests me. If I'm idle and bored I'll read all the unread messages. Then I'll do the same for some other mailing lists.
It's all organised and quick for me to do.
As I step through any folders, I always see whatever's the lastest collection of mail. If I want to check for new mail while in the middle of a long reading session I can do that manually. It's less annoying that suddenly having your list of messages re-arranged on you while you're in the middle of reading them.
On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 18:39:38 +1030 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
As I step through any folders, I always see whatever's the lastest collection of mail. If I want to check for new mail while in the middle of a long reading session I can do that manually. It's less annoying that suddenly having your list of messages re-arranged on you while you're in the middle of reading them.
YESS!!! Me too... I have to click the " GET MAIL" button to download new email when * I AM * ready to read new messages.. Being ADHD, lol, that lets me pay attention to what I am reading at the moment instead of being in the middle of reading and then be like "OH LOOK NEW MESSAGES!" and then lose my place in what I was just reading and have to start all over :(.
Chris
On Fri, Feb 11, 2022, at 1:15 PM, fedora@cwm030.com wrote:
And It's getting harder and harder for me to hop around and try new email clients out when they come out being a..........GET READY TO CRINGE..... POP3 user.
AHH CRINGE... haha.
I thought about making the change to IMAP, but old habits die hard. I find myself when I set up or try a new email client, I wind up setting it up as POP3...
So I am just curious if there is any POP users still out there
Haha, haha, nope. Switched away years ago... never looked back.
And what are some pros and cons switching to IMAP?
For me, I switched operating systems and user interfaces all the time, and I really want everything email-wise to be in sync no matter what I'm using because I work primarily by email. Especially now that I use Fastmail, which uses JMAP on its webmail, I need something that's got some level of compatibility with that. I'm basically just trying to cut down on extra work. If you're used to POP3 or only access your email on that device, or on one platform, go for it. It's just not my cup of tea personally.
And what program do you use on Fedora for your email?
When I use Fedora, I generally run Thunderbird with flowed text turned off, wrapped text set to 0, and signature separator (--) suppressed)
Slade
Hi,
What is the best way to use autossh on Fedora 35?
I have been using:
autossh -M xxxx -N -L mailhub-etc hostname
Until today, I used xxxx but from today, this is not working, and I am wondering if this is because the particular xxxx is no longer an unmonitored port? I had nightly updates to F35 yesterday.
Just to be clear that
ssh -L mailhub-etc hostname
still works, so my thinking is that the issue is with the first part.
So, I tried replacing xxxx with yyyyy and this particular yyyyy does work. But I was wondering if there was a better way than me discovering that it does not work once in a while and then trying my luck on what could be a good monitoring port.
Many thanks and best wishes, Ranjan
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