6:38 a.m.
I'm a long time KDE user and survivor of the move to KDE 4.
Thought some of you may be interested in the view point of Linus....
"Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is
starting to look almost usable.
Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell
setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather
than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that "clean
default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard install.
Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not
politically acceptable?"
https://plus.google.com/u/0/102150693225130002912/posts/WTLyn7dqYoR
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools. -- Douglas Adams in "Mostly Harmless
4:31 p.m.
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 10:24 PM, mike cloaked <mike.cloaked(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. Changing
> the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead
> the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source,
> where "ours is better and yours doesn't work any more" sounds a lot
like "ego trip."
>
> The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way
> around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
> cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.
I have been watching this thread with interest - I went through the
tinkering process with gnome3 and also with KDE - I abandonned gnome3
as it did not suit me - I tried KDE 4.0 when it first was released but
did not like it at that time. Then I stuck with KDE3.7.3 at f16
release for a while - after a couple of weeks I started to feel that
was not for me either and had some stability issues which remain as of
my last test a couple of days ago - then I tried xfce - and very
quickly found that it did everything I wanted from a DE, both speedily
and efficiently as well as with stability. Yes I had to learn the
tweaks, and which additional packages were needed to be installed to
make the optimisations I wanted possible (for all three desktop
environments) but in the end I had a choice which I was happy with. I
have not tried lxde but I know others like that DE also. There are
some things that are still buggy in all three but my own DE happiness
just happened to come with xfce on the three machines that I am now
running it on.
I guess all the DEs available will evolve in time but at least we all
have a choice and although each DE will vary in popularity every
individual should find one of them to be mostly to their taste? I do
think that long running arguments that are largely critical of one or
other DE giving significant negative feedback to those who write the
code don't provide the kind of feedback that would lead to developers
being encouraged to become enthusiastic about moving forward, but
positive requests for enhancement might have a better chance of
finding a receptive ear - it would be interesting to hear the views of
developers directly though.
One comment that I could make about gnome3.2 in f16 which was a real
clincher for me was that the alacarte package remains broken in f16 -
which is needed to do simple edits to the menus.... yes I found
alternatives to make new .desktop files for launching scripts that
were not part of the available package sets so that my own launchers
could be put into the dash (or dock extension), but that item was the
final straw for me for gnome3 apart from some of the other things that
I found worked better for me with the other two desktops I mentioned
in my previous post. I know that is a negative comment - and indeed
the bugzilla report that relates to the alacarte package remains (at
least as of last night) unresolved. However it would still be better
to pursue pushing for positive change through the bug reporting system
since that is where the developers certainly will be much more likely
to read input than here?
--
mike c
4:03 a.m.
Joe Zeff <joe <at> zeff.us> writes:
On 12/05/2011 04:48 PM, Tim wrote:
> Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially
> necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset.
The underlying problem is much more fundamental than that. Often, the
devs get big, muscular boxes to work on with lots and lots of disk
space, RAM and video RAM, including the Latest and Greatest Video Cards
they can find. This makes development much easier. They don't,
however, bother to test their work on anything other than their own
boxen, meaning that they quite often end up with great software that
only works on a maxed-out computer with the latest video cards. And, of
course, their regular response to anybody who complains about the
unreasonable and expen$ive hardware requirements is to tell them to
throw money at the problem because they rarely, if ever, have the
slightest idea how much their development equipment cost or how hard it
might be for their users to get together enough cash to upgrade.
...
Unfortunately there is a trend recognizable affecting this and other distros.
The past week I continued taking inventory of "what is going on in Linux
distros land".
Among others, I picked the recent OpenSUSE 12.1 live cd with KDE.
I decided to test it on one of my notebooks that has 768 MB RAM, on which
I have been running Windows XP, FreeBSD, Fedora with GNOME 2, XFCE, and LXDE.
Well, it was a horror - it took it 10 min to stabilize KDE (load, swap in and
out, and what ever other hell was going on in there), and while doing that to
give me a chance to access menu items (!) or panel applets without waiting
for each of them for 0.5 min to even react to each of my mouse clicks.
After that mountain climb the desktop was ready but noticeably slow.
OK, I knew KDE was a hog, even in KDE 3 times, but this ?
I mean this was a live cd - do those devs want to scare the hell out of
prospective or current users ?
Btw, here are reliable reviews of their recent 32- and 64-bit releases:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/
Now, this is not funny any more.
Fedora (you remember its review there, don't you ?) and OpenSUSE are top
distros in the perception of many, but reality bites ...
Now, I vividly remember times when we ran DOS, or even Windows 95, with
Lotus 1-2-3, WordStar, and dBASE without a hickup in this amount of RAM, and
btw on a PC with CPU and other hardware that was primitive by today's
standards.
And nowdays we can not get a Linux distro DE alone run satisfactorily on
a modern machine ?
And if that happens in UNIX/Linux world then it is a double whammy !
This is not only about programming and designing skills.
Your mindset has been polluted by IT players, marketing, companies you work
for, your peers.
JB
12:55 p.m.
On 6 December 2011 00:48, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
And it's not just the change in direction, it's the huge
increase in
computing power that's a big problem. Some years ago, Compiz came out,
with fancy flashy effects for your desktop (pretty, but unessential).
That required a 3D accelerated card, which wasn't appreciated very much.
Those of us with the hardware had a play, but would notice that Compiz,
by itself, was using almost all the available resources. The computer
was getting sluggish, the card was getting very hot. Never mind wanting
to do other things with your computer, than merely run the desktop.
Actually I found Compiz introduced some useful things, overlaying
transparent windows and drag and drop (of windows and items) between
workspaces was actually useful. There were some good accessibility
features (the desktop zoom). Though my favourite thing about Compiz
was the time (four years ago) when a Mac-using friend saw me using it
and said "I don't know what it is, but that's what heaven must look
like". My complaint about Gnome3 is mainly that it restricts that kind
of extended use rather than enabling it.
But the number of times this discussion has gone around is just
unproductive. At the end of the day? I spend most of my time working
on multiple terminal windows and text editors, doing some music and
photo organisation and have several browser windows open. I have no
idea what a power user is. The only thing that's permanently
irritating is the alt-tab / alt-` split (and some details of the alt-`
behaviour).
--
imalone
4:39 a.m.
Well, it was a horror - it took it 10 min to stabilize KDE (load,
swap in and
out, and what ever other hell was going on in there), and while doing that to
give me a chance to access menu items (!) or panel applets without waiting
for each of them for 0.5 min to even react to each of my mouse clicks.
After that mountain climb the desktop was ready but noticeably slow.
LiveCD will really show up any point you tip into paging and it's not a
good way to get a performance picture of a distro. It's a bit better off
USB2 with some of the USB sticks.
Now, I vividly remember times when we ran DOS, or even Windows 95,
with
Lotus 1-2-3, WordStar, and dBASE without a hickup in this amount of RAM, and
btw on a PC with CPU and other hardware that was primitive by today's
standards.
As was the software !
And nowdays we can not get a Linux distro DE alone run satisfactorily
on
a modern machine ?
There are lots of people building distributions for "small" spaces using
things like Yocto. The other assumption you have is also a bit dubious.
Everyone in server space is now doing lots of virtualisation - having big
fat distributions is exactly what the big hosting providers and
corporations doing this on a large scale *hate*, because it wastes tons
and tons of resources.
Alan
7:12 p.m.
On 12/05/2011 04:48 PM, Tim wrote:
Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially
necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset.
The underlying problem is much more fundamental than that. Often, the
devs get big, muscular boxes to work on with lots and lots of disk
space, RAM and video RAM, including the Latest and Greatest Video Cards
they can find. This makes development much easier. They don't,
however, bother to test their work on anything other than their own
boxen, meaning that they quite often end up with great software that
only works on a maxed-out computer with the latest video cards. And, of
course, their regular response to anybody who complains about the
unreasonable and expen$ive hardware requirements is to tell them to
throw money at the problem because they rarely, if ever, have the
slightest idea how much their development equipment cost or how hard it
might be for their users to get together enough cash to upgrade.
This problem would be self-correcting (because people would stay away
from such resource hogs) if it weren't for companies who are willing to
pay whatever it takes to upgrade because they think they have to have
the latest pile of festering dingo poo to come down the pike and kids
just out of school with more disposable income than common sense who do
exactly the same thing.
I don't know, of course, if that's part of what happened in the case of
Gnome 3, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit astonished to learn that it
was part of what made it turn out the way it did.
8:47 p.m.
To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a
$ sed -i 's|Fedora 3|Gnome 3|g' "To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to
others it is a"
Right?
Fedora 3 was released long time ago, If I remember correctly Nov 2004 :)
road to
madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is
the creation
the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the
wrong track as
Linus thinks it is.
--
Regards,
Antonio
10:57 a.m.
very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of
Internet
connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet
category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only*
That's very questionable. The majority of internet connected devices
*with a user interface* probably - and at the current takeup almost
entirely phones. How much of a shift this really is you can debate for
hours given that the phone/tablet/pc divide is IMHO essentially an
artificial construction caused by current hardware limits.
We don't ask "is that a phone or a watch" any more. We don't ask
"Do you
have a PDA and a phone" any more. In a few years time it won't make sense
to ask "do you have a tablet and a PC". To me the more interesting
question is how you ensure when you get home and stick your system on the
charger that it backs up, switches to the fast processor on the base
unit, fires up the monitors and speakers and does so seamlessly, ditto
when you take it away, ditto when it's put into the car, ...
The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen.
Smartphones
are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families
because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and
do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
Actually if you look at pricing a second hand PC is cheaper at the base
level. However it's hard to maintain like all PC systems, it needs
technical poking now and then while Android has pretty much (not quite)
succeeded in being a 'just works' environment along with a 'can reset and
get it back' model.
One of the most convincing marketing explanations I heard for all of this
is that the end user PC market is finally segmenting more. It's splitting
more and more clearly into groups like
- I don't type a lot, I don't care and if my phone does it with the least
hassle I'm sorted
- I need a keyboard but otherwise don't care (traditional low end PC)
- 'Power' users - technical folks, extreme gamers
- My computer is a style statement
that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly
displacing
laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly
back that up.
There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole
argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely
unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour.
Alan
11:20 a.m.
I have been working with computers and operating system before many on
this list were even a twinkle in their fathers eye. When I was
introduced to Linux (kernel 0.92), it pleased me that I could switch to
a computer I didn't have to build myself. Also, I no longer had to run
ZPM at home, and unix at work.
Although I normally only update on even versions, because I don't mind
change, I like some stability in my work.
I upgraded my hardware about the time that F15 came out, so I decided
that I would install f15 instead of f14. When I found that gnome did not
run out of the box, I had to make a decision, to I want to go through a
learning curve, or do I want to develop systems.
If I wanted windoz, I would run windoz.
I am hoping that when I get the time to upgrade my systems to F16, that
the source for the old gnome will compile with it. If not, I will have
to upgrade to one of the simple window system that just let me do my
work.
I know "opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has
on", and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so
different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not
put out as a revision.
4:25 p.m.
Craig White:
Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being
improved
upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous
speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option
for many.
It's the first thing that springs to mind, as an easy solution. Until
you watch how businessmen use their gadgets, on the bus, at a cafe on
the street corner, in a meeting... Voice input has its uses, but lots
of limitations.
Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with
some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't
forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and
practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or
2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway.
Haven't heard of swipe keyboards, so I went and had a look. Argh, gawd,
bringing the fun and games of predictive text to all keyboards. It's
bad enough trying to decipher what some people try to say in plain
English, never mind when the computer has added further scrambling.
True enough that there's plenty of hunt and peck typists, and some of
them are fast. At least with a normal keyboard you can use normal
fingers. With mini keyboards, of any type, you're faced with using a
stick, or trying to get the corner of a fingernail to press the one key
that you want to press, and not four keys at the same time.
But, adding a keyboard to a tablet, is getting back to ye olde desktop
problem. A box, with this cabled to that, half a dozen times over
(keyboard, mouse, screen, printer, modem...), rat's nests are bad enough
on the desk, but haven't to lug it around and set it up with a portable
devices. :-(
Not to mention a grudging admission that such things are still
necessary, or vital.
On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and
reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist
for extended usage.
Sure, if you feel like bashing your fingertips into a solid piece of
glass... And being unable to touch type. They really are up there with
the rest of the unergonomic designs.
> Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but
not very
> good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
> the most versatile.
True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but
'pinch to zoom'
allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like
a needle in many instances.
I've watched my friend doing that. Just reading one small webpage, and
then clicking on the bits you needed to click on, involved lots of
zooming in and out, and panning around. Not at all convenient, nor
quick, and out of the question for people without manual dexterity, or
missing some digits.
> That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try
and impose a
> tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
> see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
> Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.
It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and
yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the
desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that
other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5"
diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5" to 7-8" and larger.
Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell
(like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and
display when in an home or office environment, etc.
And, continue to use an inappropriate interface, instead of
transforming? Because the way things are going, it doesn't look
transforming is going to be the way. With desktop devices getting
portable device interfaces.
I see the value of portable devices, I see the value of being able to
develop for them on a desktop computer. I do not see that it's good
thing to destroy a good desktop model to force people into using an
inappropriate one on it, just to be consistent.
Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the
woods in
Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
with an eye to all possible form factors.
The trouble is that they (various "theys"), don't seem to be designing
UIs to fit different form factors. They're trying to fit one UI onto
all the devices.
Yes, such gadgets are becoming popular, here. But they're still a
specialist device, and hardly suitable replacements for a full computer.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
9:06 a.m.
Alan Cox <alan <at> lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes:
> The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not
> going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
> to use.
That's somewhat arrogant and misleading. You assume that people want
exact control of everything they use, whereas most people want detailed
domain knowledge and control of a few things and would prefer the rest
just worked simply without configuration.
Sounds like the award-winning GNOME 2 DE :-)
But the ueber-driven KDE fans called it "dumbed down" ...
...
Then there is discoverability, making a user interface something you can
gradually learn and find the extra features in - like hotkeys and
shortcuts. That's one case where Gnome 3.2 panel in fallback fails
horribly - alt right-click ???? how will anyone logically deduce this and
try it ?
Yep, that's the most sensible critique so far in this thread (after mine) -
it almost matches "The Linus view of GNOME 3.2" ...
...
JB
6:04 a.m.
The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're
not
going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
to use.
That's somewhat arrogant and misleading. You assume that people want
exact control of everything they use, whereas most people want detailed
domain knowledge and control of a few things and would prefer the rest
just worked simply without configuration.
Interfaces also differ dramatically in whether the knowledge on how to
use them is internalised (eg the command line) or externalised (many gui
interfaces).
Then there is discoverability, making a user interface something you can
gradually learn and find the extra features in - like hotkeys and
shortcuts. That's one case where Gnome 3.2 panel in fallback fails
horribly - alt right-click ???? how will anyone logically deduce this and
try it ?
If you've not read it you might find Norman's "The Design of Everyday
Things" an interesting read.
Alan
2:21 a.m.
On 12/04/2011 11:44 PM, Scott Doty wrote:
But this resembles an _unconfigured_ gnome2 installation -- all of
the
buttons, drawers, and widgets from Gnome 2's gnome-panel are lost.
To add things to the panels, press alt and hold, press right mouse click.
The drawers are not there though, but buttons, and most widgets etc. are
there.
I really wish people would stop trying to put lipstick on the
fallback
mode -- just tell folks to move to kde, or xfce.
Lipstick? For me it is as close to Gnome2 that I can get, I can get the
buttons and widgets I used, and most importantly, it restores the
work-flow that I once had in Gnome2, the work-flow that Gnome3 with its
shell totally destroyed. I can get my work done again, and that's what
it is important for me.
I actually did use Xfce since Gnome3 hit me, but turned to the fall-back
mode mentioned above (i.e. Gnome3 with metacity, Gnome3 with compiz I
did not get to work though, could not add things to the panels).
The sad thing is that they have hidden this fall-back mode quite thoroughly.
Lars.
--
Lars E. Pettersson <lars(a)homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/
2:01 a.m.
On 12/04/2011 06:54 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size
thing, and
as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they*can* read are no longer ones they
*want to* read.
I'm 62, now, and I see much better than I did when I was 40, although I
still prefer the same fonts.
8:43 p.m.
Alan Cox wrote:
I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16.
[...snip...]
I still think the biggest mistake was calling it "Gnome".
It's
something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if
they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome.
That has to rank among the top ten astute things you have said (in a long
history of getting to the heart of a problem). If you use the name you get the
expectations for free. Somewhat like Ford jacking up the Explorer name and
replacing an SUV with a crossover instead of coining a new name for their AWD
station wagon.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
10:03 p.m.
On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 08:55 +1030, Tim wrote:
> Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of
the woods in
> Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
> shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
> netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
> inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
> and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
> of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
> 8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
> UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
> with an eye to all possible form factors.
The trouble is that they (various "theys"), don't seem to be designing
UIs to fit different form factors. They're trying to fit one UI onto
all the devices.
Yes, such gadgets are becoming popular, here. But they're still a
specialist device, and hardly suitable replacements for a full computer.
----
the various devices you are describing 'they' are designing to are
indeed computers. Smaller form factors are indeed suitable replacements
for a full computer - but perhaps not for all purposes but maybe that's
a function of what's possibly with today's technology.
That doesn't preclude anyone from choosing to use the DE that suits
their needs and if it isn't Gnome, there are other choices.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
9:40 p.m.
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 21:34 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
>> On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
>>> As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
>>> see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
>>> impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
>>> want that toy.
>>
>> Finally, someone talking sense!
>>
>> Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've
>> previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
>> toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about.
> ----
> you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
> F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
> much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.
>
I'm not sure how that follows, KDE is more like GNOME2 than is GNOME3. The GNOME
releases are similar only at the acronym level.
----
I see - in your opinion, software developers are not actually free to
re-imagine what their software is/does or is this particular lack of
inability only extended to Gnome developers?
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
8:54 p.m.
Joe Zeff wrote:
On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
> Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
> style software. That will change.
Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a
spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's
available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard. For that matter,
I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at
about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much
writing with only an on-screen keyboard.
[1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing.
[2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping
for its own sake.
I did one book for NaNoWriMo, although the length to "complete" it was about
half of what it reached when really done. I built a system just for writing,
with a big HDTV as monitor so I could have the timeline tool and word processor
on the screen, and went through three keyboards and two chairs before I got the
perfect setup. Haven't done one in a few years, last year my wife was dying and
I was caretaker 7x24, this year I'm about 60k into a book which insisted on
being written before the one I sat down to write.
There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size thing, and
as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they *can* read are no longer ones they
*want to* read.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
8:34 p.m.
Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
>> As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
>> see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
>> impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
>> want that toy.
>
> Finally, someone talking sense!
>
> Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've
> previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
> toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about.
----
you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.
I'm not sure how that follows, KDE is more like GNOME2 than is GNOME3. The
GNOME
releases are similar only at the acronym level.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
6:42 p.m.
On Sunday 04 December 2011 12:21:44 Joe Zeff wrote:
On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who
> want a zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer,
> car and microwave oven.
"Anything
worth using has a learning curve."
The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not
going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
to use.
I agree with you completely, but the Gnome devs are apparently pushing to
prove us wrong... :-)
However, as a happy KDE user I don't have to worry about the Gnome devs. Btw,
you reminded me of that common saying, "build a system that even an idiot can
use, and only idiots will use it", which may give people a bit of perspective
on the route Gnome is taking... ;-)
Best, :-)
Marko
6:21 p.m.
[1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket
computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is
thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon.
In 1974... the handheld calculator already being with us in 1967 and
Moores law already stated. Star Trek was already waving tricorders around
and tricorders appear to show cloud computing ideas too.
Try 'Feeling of Power' - Asimov 1958 (which also predicts losing the
ability to do maths because of having a pocket calculator). I'm not even
sure it's the first.
And of course Dynabook was described in 1968 by Alan Kay as a real
research vision. His original design btw was 12" x 9" so large pocket
needed but very much a tablet style although he included a keyboard.
Whats really interesting is what else the Parc work predicted in 1980 as
the result of such devices and the stuff they were playing with then but
unable to do within size and budget due to technology. My favourite quote
from the CC article on it being
"Television in particular would be in for trouble - who's going to watch
poor television programs if they can link up with all the other kids on
the block for a game of really super Startrek or Startrader"
Didn't quite call Warcraft correctly but not far off 8)
Alan
4:44 p.m.
On 12/04/2011 01:40 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
Lars
But this resembles an _unconfigured_ gnome2 installation -- all of the
buttons, drawers, and widgets from Gnome 2's gnome-panel are lost.
I really wish people would stop trying to put lipstick on the fallback
mode -- just tell folks to move to kde, or xfce.
-Scott
4:25 p.m.
Tim:
> Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like
> that, such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat
> next to them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two
> sentences is a major chore.
Alan Cox:
You need to watch a 14 year old not a business-drone. The kids
learned
this stuff from a young age and their wpm on a phone is scary.
Actually, this is where I see another problem. Kids seem to be quite
happy to jump through hoops, and do a variety of inconvenient things,
just to get it done. Myself, I consider that bad design.
I am a tech-head. I work in video production, and I'm surrounded by
things that I have to endlessly fiddle with to get the results. I need
that for its flexibility. I wouldn't suggest that the ordinary person,
who just wants to look at something, should have to go through the same
rigmarole.
I picked the businessmen as my example, because it's probably more
indicative of the general public. For one thing, they're expensive
toys, though are getting to the stage where kids do own them. But more
that I'd say there's more adults using these gadgets than kids. And, by
now, I think it's obvious to most that the great masses of people using
some sort of computing device are not brilliantly technically literate.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
4:19 p.m.
On 12/04/2011 01:42 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default.
I
hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t
like someone´s opinions. :)
It looks to me as though he's not so much complaining about Gnome3 being
the default, as about the way Gnome3 looks to be designed for a tablet
with just a (very) grudging nod to the fact that most of its users are
using a desktop or laptop computer that doesn't have a touch screen.
3:42 p.m.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 17:49, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
you do NOT WANT to understand me
YES I DO. ;)
but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real
computers!
I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I
hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t
like someone´s opinions. :)
All this brouhaha would be moot if Fedora simply detected the kind of
device it´s being installed on and show a screen saying
"this looks like** a Tablet device, so we´ll default to a touch-based
interface, OK? [yes-no]"
Or "This looks like** a Desktop computer, we´ll be defaulting to XFCE.
Are you OK with that? [yes-no]"
Or "This is a laptop or netbook. Which desktop interface do you
prefer? [a] [b] [c] [d]".
So everyone is happy and there´s no ugly desktop forced down anybody´s throat.
FC
PS: While I wrote the above ** I couldn´t help smiling and thinking
about the infamouse Clippy and its "it looks like you´re writing a
letter..." ;-)
--
"The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers."
Richard Hamming - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code
2:49 p.m.
Am 04.12.2011 21:05, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald
<h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
> what did you exactly not understand in "the percent does not matter"
> all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
> powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE.
Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where
growth will be
you do NOT WANT to understand me
it does not matter in the context "we optimize all for the new
devices because a traditional pc is not cool enough"
where did i say any word that these devices sgould be ignored
or not supported as good as possible?
but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real
computers!
often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional computer.
laughable, many of this new devices are at the same cost as
a traditional computer if you look at the real price and
not what your mobile providr pays for you
In other words, the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc
environment will eventually stall.
so what....
If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche
market.
who spoke about ignore them?
make a useable desktop for classical computers where you
can switch to a mobile-view, but do not handle every device
like a mbolie OR YOU BECOME A NICHE
That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices
and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer
UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms.
did i say anything against this?
the problem is that childish developers forget real devices
In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest "get Ubuntu on
TVs" might be
too late already.
nobody needs a crippled distribution which does not fit well
on a tv and not on a real computer
for such things were and are specialized distributions
much better and there is no need to cripple down desktop
distributions
Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.
hopefully that the other developers will not get infected by
this "all for the new coll play-devices"
2:47 p.m.
On 12/04/2011 12:05 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.
But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds.
Exactly. I have no objection to seeing Linux move into the realm of the
tablet, the phone and the pocket computer;[1] I think it's a good thing.
I don't even object to creating a UI for a desktop that emulates that
of a tablet, for those who want it. What I, personally, object to is
making that emulation the default for a major DE and telling anybody who
complains that they'll just hafta learn to use it. I can't speak for
anybody else (except, in this case, my sister) but my (and her) reaction
to something like that is to say, "No I don't," while walking away from
whatever it is and finding something else that I like better.
I probably would have at least given Gnome 3 a try if the attitude of
the devs hadn't been so inflexible. When they said to the world, in
effect, "My way or the highway," my instant response was to find a
different DE (XFCE in my case) that allowed me to do things my way
instead of forcing me to do things the way the devs think the world
wants to do things.
YMMV, and if you're using Gnome 3 clearly does, which is fine with me.
[1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket
computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is
thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon.
2:21 p.m.
On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people
who want a
zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and
microwave oven.
Friday night, I was talking with writer John DeChancie. He was
interested in turning one of his paintings into a cover for his latest
book, and I suggested that he look at Scribus, as it's FOSS and works
under Windows just as well as Linux. As it happened, one of the other
members of the conversation had used the program and said that it was
very capable, but had a generous learning curve. I replied, "Anything
worth using has a learning curve."
The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not
going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
to use.
2:05 p.m.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
what did you exactly not understand in "the percent does not
matter"
all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE.
Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where
growth will be, often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional
computer.
In other words, the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc
environment will eventually stall.
If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche
market. An OS that is no longer talked about is often forgotten.
Remember IBM OS/2? It´s still for sale -and somewhat limited
development- under another brand at www.ecomstation.com. Will it grow?
hardly. Will anybody know about it 10 years from now? very unlikely.
That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices
and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer
UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms.
In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest "get Ubuntu on TVs" might be
too late already.
Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.
But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds.
Just my $0.02
FC
--
"The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers."
Richard Hamming - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code
1:26 p.m.
On Sunday 04 December 2011 19:59:38 Reindl Harald wrote:
all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having
smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much
more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done
with any mobile device because you are missing the needed
performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc.
Noobs and people who only look at e-mail and surf the web will use Gnome3,
since it "looks the same" and "works the same" as their favorite
smartphone.
Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a
zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and
microwave oven.
Meanwhile, workstation powerusers will use KDE, and configure it inside out to
match their desired workflow. ;-)
And the world will be a happy place once again. :-D
Best, :-)
Marko
12:59 p.m.
Am 04.12.2011 19:19, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald
<h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
> this is nonsense
>
> the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is
permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a
smartphone or tab which will not happen
> not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android
or some other OS.
http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp
He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by
extension, the windows API at the app level, too.
did i say anything other?
what did you exactly not understand in "the percent does not matter"
all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having
smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much
more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done
with any mobile device because you are missing the needed
performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc.
12:19 p.m.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
this is nonsense
the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently
online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab
which will not happen
not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android
or some other OS.
http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp
He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by
extension, the windows API at the app level, too.
FC
--
"The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers."
Richard Hamming - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code
10:05 a.m.
On 12/04/2011 03:34 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
Where does one find System info? I can't find it.
Left click on your name in the upper right corner of the screen.
Chose 'Systems Settings'
Chose 'System Info'
Chose 'Graphics'
There you have a toggle for 'Forced Fallback Mode'
To add things to the panels, press and hold Alt, and then right click.
It seem to be quite close to what you get in Gnome2.
Lars
--
Lars E. Pettersson <lars(a)homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/
9:58 a.m.
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 08:34 -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> > Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> > GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
>
> If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will
get
> something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
> Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
Where does one find System info? I can't find it.
Right top corner, click on your username and go to System Settings.
Scroll to the very bottom and should see it under System.
--
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY
"The best town on Earth!"
8:42 a.m.
O> Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more
complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just
isn't going
to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just
isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long
email without a keyboard.
I read much of my email these days on my Android phone with K9. I save
the stuff worth replying to and reply locally. It means reading email can
be done in what was otherwise dead times.
For the typical end user with webmail there isn't really much difference
between gmail on a phone and gmail on the web.
Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like
that,
such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to
them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
a major chore.
You need to watch a 14 year old not a business-drone. The kids learned
this stuff from a young age and their wpm on a phone is scary.
Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less
awkwardly in the other aspect. Zooming in and panning about to read
something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a
keyhole).
Definitely. I do read books on the phone when travelling but they need to
be appropriately formatted and some stuff like magazine type material
simply doesn't work.
That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and
impose a
tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.
Agreed 100%. In fact one of the problems outstanding is how the UI
handles the situation where you do the following
Receive an email on the phone, glance at it, begin replying, realise you
need to look at the attached presentation, flick the phone display onto
your 40" LED 1080p television and carry on working that way.
Simply expanding the existing display and way of working isn't
necessarily the sane way to do it. And it actually goes beyond that,
because if you've got local CPU power you really want your environment to
be a virtual machine that can flip seamlessly onto the bigger processor
connected to the TV.
Alan
8:34 a.m.
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
> Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
> GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
Where does one find System info? I can't find it.
--
=======================================================================
In the future, you're going to get computers as prizes in breakfast
cereals. You'll throw them out because your house will be littered with
them.
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
3:40 a.m.
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to
offer
GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
Lars
--
Lars E. Pettersson <lars(a)homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/
3:40 a.m.
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to
offer
GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
Lars
--
Lars E. Pettersson <lars(a)homer.se>
http://www.sm6rpz.se/
10:25 p.m.
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 12:35 +1030, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
> Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers.... and
> do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
> that were once solely the domain of PCs.
Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more
complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just
isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long
email without a keyboard.
----
Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved
upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous
speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option
for many. Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with
some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't
forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and
practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or
2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway.
Then there are extremely portable bluetooth keyboards that can fold up
into your pockets... all sorts of options.
---
Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like
that,
such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to
them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
a major chore.
----
most of the people using Blackberry's are not necessarily tech savvy -
they're somewhat inferior devices. Besides, they have become irrelevant
in the marketplace, hemorrhaging money to the point where I wonder if
they won't be out of business in 3 years.
----
> Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world.
The main
> barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing
> information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those
> who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers
> actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more
> effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take
> off like a shot.
Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads. And you're
right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen,
less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty
for typing anything more than about a sentence or two.
As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else
than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing. And I mean something
with physical buttons, that you can feel move. Not just drawing a
keyboard on the screen.
----
Now that you're talking about tablets, there's things like Asus
Transformer which has a keyboard or the various keyboard 'cases' for
iPad so obviously there are other methods - apparently none of which you
use. On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and
reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist
for extended usage.
By the way, I watched my daughter (33 y/o) typing on her HTC Incredible
today and she was lightning quick - it can be done... just takes
practice. Myself, I'm not so quick and I tend to go to voice entry for
lengthy stuff.
----
Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not
very
good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
the most versatile.
----
True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom'
allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like
a needle in many instances.
----
> PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be
greatly
> impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
> sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
> in this coming wave...
That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.
----
It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and
yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the
desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that
other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5"
diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5" to 7-8" and larger.
Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell
(like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and
display when in an home or office environment, etc.
Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in
Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
with an eye to all possible form factors.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
8:05 p.m.
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers.... and
do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
that were once solely the domain of PCs.
Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more
complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just
isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long
email without a keyboard.
Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to
them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
a major chore.
Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less
awkwardly in the other aspect. Zooming in and panning about to read
something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a
keyhole).
Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The
main
barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing
information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those
who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers
actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more
effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take
off like a shot.
Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads. And you're
right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen,
less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty
for typing anything more than about a sentence or two.
As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else
than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing. And I mean something
with physical buttons, that you can feel move. Not just drawing a
keyboard on the screen.
Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
the most versatile.
PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be
greatly
impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
in this coming wave...
That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that
see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
7:59 p.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
> As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
> see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
> impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
> want that toy.
Finally, someone talking sense!
Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've
previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about.
----
you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.
There is the philosophy of 'release early and often', for many reasons
including getting more eyeballs on the code base, bug reports, bug
fixes, etc. Perhaps you are familiar with this one because it has been a
driving force behind Open Source software. This means that there are
times when there is some pain to be experience until things mature. This
seems to particularly evident on a DE because not all the parts and
pieces are in place for quite some time - as it was with KDE 4, so it
was with Gnome 3. Get over it. If you're not impressed with Gnome 3,
choose a different DE or use a different distro that is hanging onto
Gnome 2 for some time. Seems to me that you have more productive choices
than to somewhat pointlessly bitch and moan to a users list.
----
In another message, you expressed the idea that we should
(paraphrased)
"love it or leave it." But since you've previously revealed that you
are an Ubuntu user, you have no clue what we are talking about.
----
not sure what one has to do with the other but apparently you missed the
point of the 'love it or leave it' designation came from you and I tried
to sign on to your assertion as best I could.
----
If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with
respectable ideas. "Stop using Fedora" is not one of them. "Linus'
opinion doesn't matter" is not one of them.
----
I don't recall ever expressing a desire to have my ideas respected -
clearly some will and some won't and I am more than willing to live with
that outcome as I don't actually expect everyone to agree with me.
I don't recall ever suggesting anyone to 'Stop using Fedora' but rather
would encourage everyone to evaluate whether Fedora is the right
distribution for their needs. If you want to make some leap into it
meaning anything more than that - take responsibility for your own leap.
Now that Linus has done both a dis and an embrace of Gnome 3 - are you
asserting that his opinion matters in terms of Gnome 3 implementation on
Fedora? Feel free to elaborate.
Craig
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7:09 p.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 14:13 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
Gnome 2 is dead save for any
reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur).
Before you claim that I take that sentence out of context, it was
part
of a paragraph about
flame-bait, and was out of context already.
----
there's an awful lot of work in maintaining the entire Gnome 2 desktop
and blending it into an OS that doesn't break other things and actually
maintain it over time but if it appeals to you (Mint), then you should
go for it.
Craig
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7:31 p.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 19:04 +0000, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
On Saturday 03 December 2011 07:37:21 Scott Doty wrote:
> If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with
> respectable ideas. "Stop using Fedora" is not one of them.
"Linus'
> opinion doesn't matter" is not one of them.
Respect on this list is obtained by providing high-quality advice to people
who ask for it. Craig is a long-term participant on this list, and does hold a
certain amount of respect in the eyes of other people here. OTOH, I don't
remember you giving any advice to anyone here, up until this thread started.
The "stop using Fedora" is in fact a very useful advice --- if Fedora does not
meet your needs, you have absolute freedom to try out and migrate to some
other distro that does. Fedora is not for everyone, and I don't always
recommend it to everyone. It takes a certain personality profile to be able to
use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies,
the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle
steep learning curves.
If you don't have these abilities, then Fedora is probably not the right
choice for you. If I were you, I would give Craig's advice more serious
consideration.
HTH :-)
Marko
To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a road to
madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is the creation
the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the wrong track as
Linus thinks it is.
--
=======================================================================
blithwapping: Using anything BUT a hammer to hammer a nail into the
wall, such as shoes, lamp bases, doorstops, etc. -- "Sniglets", Rich
Hall & Friends
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam(a)sbcglobal.net
7:28 p.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 13:48 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
Alan Cox wrote:
[...snip...]
>> that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
>> laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
>
> I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly
> back that up.
>
> There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole
> argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely
> unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour.
>
I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space as
a PC. If the imput limitations are not an issues, and many people are just
consumers on content, then a tablet will serve. If portability is an issue, and
ease of use without a mouse matters, the tablet is a better choice,. no PC needed.
----
as you some allude to in your next quoted paragraph, tablets are not an
either / or proposition but rather an alternative and thus, usuable for
80-90% of typical computer uses.
----
I'm planning to buy the new Eee Transformer, it provides the
benefits of both,
and the means to use whichever configuration suits. A tablet for walking around,
and a real keyboard and better resolution mouse when doing typing tasks. It will
not replace a big PC for major word processing, unless it has a lot better
keyboard feel and CPU power than I expect, but for a few days on the road it
serves just fine.
----
Evidently the Transformer Prime pre-orders have greatly stripped Asus's
ability to deliver in the near term. Good choice - good luck getting
one.
Craig
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4:24 p.m.
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com> wrote:
>> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus,
his opinion
>> does not matter.
>> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
>> opinions of end users don't matter.
> ----
> I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
> the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
>
> You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
> you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
> users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
> progress.
Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. Changing
the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead
the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source,
where "ours is better and yours doesn't work any more" sounds a lot like
"ego trip."
The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way
around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.
I have been watching this thread with interest - I went through the
tinkering process with gnome3 and also with KDE - I abandonned gnome3
as it did not suit me - I tried KDE 4.0 when it first was released but
did not like it at that time. Then I stuck with KDE3.7.3 at f16
release for a while - after a couple of weeks I started to feel that
was not for me either and had some stability issues which remain as of
my last test a couple of days ago - then I tried xfce - and very
quickly found that it did everything I wanted from a DE, both speedily
and efficiently as well as with stability. Yes I had to learn the
tweaks, and which additional packages were needed to be installed to
make the optimisations I wanted possible (for all three desktop
environments) but in the end I had a choice which I was happy with. I
have not tried lxde but I know others like that DE also. There are
some things that are still buggy in all three but my own DE happiness
just happened to come with xfce on the three machines that I am now
running it on.
I guess all the DEs available will evolve in time but at least we all
have a choice and although each DE will vary in popularity every
individual should find one of them to be mostly to their taste? I do
think that long running arguments that are largely critical of one or
other DE giving significant negative feedback to those who write the
code don't provide the kind of feedback that would lead to developers
being encouraged to become enthusiastic about moving forward, but
positive requests for enhancement might have a better chance of
finding a receptive ear - it would be interesting to hear the views of
developers directly though.
--
mike c
5:23 p.m.
sometimes this whole discussions feels like i am the only one who
is using development-tools, a desktop machine for virtual-machines
used as wlan access point, router, audio-server and so much other
this you can NEVER achieve on a tablet
*current* tablet. Half of that you couldn't do on a PC ten years ago !
short time ago linux was for power-users and windows a game loader
do they people all think power-users are dying and liux should be
a replacement for windows
On the contrary I think the tablet of today is todays Palmpilot. A
constrained platform used (very cleverly in some cases) to provide a very
useful subset of facilities.
However the technology is moving on all the time. I have an 8GB microSD
card here. When I was a university student the university was proud of
its massive total 6GB of disk storage.
Alan
5:18 p.m.
On 12/03/2011 02:31 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
However it would still be better to pursue pushing for positive
change
through the bug reporting system since that is where the developers
certainly will be much more likely to read input than here?
Agreed, as well as joining the Gnome usability list.
I've been lurking on the list much of late, but I will be damned if I
have to sit here and watch some snot-nosed CS101 punk "dis'" Linus.
Gnome developers, on the other hand...well, I would say they have it
coming to them, but I think that would be incorrect: the problem was a
lack of communication, a lack of feedback on big changes.
I'm not the only one caught off-guard by the changes in Gnome 3 -- nor
do I have to like the game of "gotcha" people played when I first
brought it up. Alas, I haven't had anywhere near the time to put into
supporting change that I'd like. (Maybe this will be the impetus that
lights a fire under my tail end.)
-Scott
5:01 p.m.
Am 03.12.2011 23:58, schrieb Alan Cox:
>> Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices
can't run modern PC
>> style software. That will change.
>
> Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a
> spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's
> available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
Do you think an accountant will want to muck about copying things
between devices when his tablet just picks up the local bluetooth
keyboard and wireless display when he walks into the room, and still
works as a tablet with his customer ?
Alan
sometimes this whole discussions feels like i am the only one who
is using development-tools, a desktop machine for virtual-machines
used as wlan access point, router, audio-server and so much other
this you can NEVER achieve on a tablet
short time ago linux was for power-users and windows a game loader
do they people all think power-users are dying and liux should be
a replacement for windows instead a independet, customizeable system
for real performance and much more a 08/15 user will use?
if this is the truth i fear i am too young with 34 years to die before
this crap will be introduced everywhere and all peopole who are really
using there computers are to few to get supported
glory brand new wolrd :-(
4:58 p.m.
> Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices
can't run modern PC
> style software. That will change.
Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a
spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's
available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
Do you think an accountant will want to muck about copying things
between devices when his tablet just picks up the local bluetooth
keyboard and wireless display when he walks into the room, and still
works as a tablet with his customer ?
Alan
4:42 p.m.
I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16.
The F16 installer is a trainwreck - crashes if an old disk has a partial
raid array on it, then crashes when you try and report the crash. Try
again and it decides my install options contain a conflict, go back to
fix it and it hangs. It eats 750MB of memory yet it *still* can't even
manage to do basic 'Guess my location/locale' stuff using geolocation
tools.
The desktop is looking rather better than before. The dock and some of
the extensions actually turn it roughly back into a desktop and the
transitions and planning for the most part are smooth. Some of the most
annoying bits of behaviour seem to have been tidied up. Yet to try it on
a big display however. A big display really really needs things like
application menus on the backdrop right click to avoid all the mouse
waving in Gnome 3 (and indeed Gnome 2 defaults).
It's a pity they are still desperately trying to hide the extensions in
the default install. Granted some of them don't work, they conflict with
each other and the design is far inferior to the Gnome 2 applets but it's
heading the right way, and some of the other style and design work is
certainly better than Gnome 2. The Gnome extensions web site is also
designed to help this process - but I suspect because they way all the
extensions seem to fight each other it'll be a rough ride initially.
Performance seems a bit better but it ought to be given it's running
off SSD.
I still think the biggest mistake was calling it "Gnome". It's
something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if
they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome.
Alan
4:26 p.m.
On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't
run modern PC
style software. That will change.
Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a
spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's
available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard. For that matter,
I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at
about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much
writing with only an on-screen keyboard.
[1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing.
[2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping
for its own sake.
2:35 p.m.
On 3 December 2011 13:31, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting
like
impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
want that toy.
The real flamebait here was Ed's original post in the thread
about your
beloved Linus embracing Gnome 3 - his earlier dis or his current embrace
Bit low maybe to talk about childish behaviour before immediately
going on to 'your beloved Linus'?
--
imalone
1:13 p.m.
Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:26 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote:
>
>> The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that
>> Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your
>> expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a
>> distribution that does. Craig
>>
> "Love it or leave it."
>
> Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a
> community Linux distribution.
>
> It is not a Craig White Linux distribution.
>
> ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
> its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.
>
----
I don't recall ever professing to have any influence on the choices that
Fedora developers make nor do I ever use the users list as a soap box
for my thoughts on the matter. I am content to live with their decisions
and make the best of whatever short term issues arise and do bugzilla
reports when something fails to meet my expectations.
Your memory is failing too.
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:29 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
I get the impression that you're suggesting that I lack critical
thinking skills but you have them. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that
thinking for the moment, let me just point out that Gnome 2 is dead and
won't be coming to another Fedora release ever - little critical
thinking needs to be done to understand that.
Given that adoption of the GNOME2 fork from MINT has been discussed
here, it
would seem that you sure as hell SOUNDS like you are professing
influence on
Fedora content, It sounds as if you, single handedly, can prevent
inclusion.
Or do your "critical thinking skills" mean only "critical of others?"
Anyway, therer is a credible port, you also said:
Gnome 2 is dead save for any
reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur).
Before you claim that I take that sentence out of context, it was part
of a paragraph about
flame-bait, and was out of context already.
--
Bill Davidsen<davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
1:09 p.m.
On 12/03/2011 02:20 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
bad developers are throwing all away, starting from scratch, getting
frustrated after a while because they recognize how much work would
it be to write all the existing things again
In the case of Gnome 3, I get the impression that they threw out the
baby *instead of* the bath water.
1:04 p.m.
On Saturday 03 December 2011 07:37:21 Scott Doty wrote:
If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with
respectable ideas. "Stop using Fedora" is not one of them. "Linus'
opinion doesn't matter" is not one of them.
Respect on this list is obtained by providing high-quality advice to people
who ask for it. Craig is a long-term participant on this list, and does hold a
certain amount of respect in the eyes of other people here. OTOH, I don't
remember you giving any advice to anyone here, up until this thread started.
The "stop using Fedora" is in fact a very useful advice --- if Fedora does not
meet your needs, you have absolute freedom to try out and migrate to some
other distro that does. Fedora is not for everyone, and I don't always
recommend it to everyone. It takes a certain personality profile to be able to
use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies,
the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle
steep learning curves.
If you don't have these abilities, then Fedora is probably not the right
choice for you. If I were you, I would give Craig's advice more serious
consideration.
HTH :-)
Marko
12:56 p.m.
Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
>> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>> actually matters.
>
> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>
> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
> does not matter.
> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
> opinions of end users don't matter.
----
I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.
Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. Changing
the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead
the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source,
where "ours is better and yours doesn't work any more" sounds a lot like
"ego trip."
The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way
around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
12:48 p.m.
Alan Cox wrote:
[...snip...]
> that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly
displacing
> laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly
back that up.
There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole
argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely
unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour.
I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space
as
a PC. If the imput limitations are not an issues, and many people are just
consumers on content, then a tablet will serve. If portability is an issue, and
ease of use without a mouse matters, the tablet is a better choice,. no PC needed.
I'm planning to buy the new Eee Transformer, it provides the benefits of both,
and the means to use whichever configuration suits. A tablet for walking around,
and a real keyboard and better resolution mouse when doing typing tasks. It will
not replace a big PC for major word processing, unless it has a lot better
keyboard feel and CPU power than I expect, but for a few days on the road it
serves just fine.
I think the car paradigm works, the specialized units are so much better than
the general purpose units that there is a market for all of them, big, little,
cheap, expen$ive, sexy, etc.Sports cars and Fiat 500 as well as pickup trucks.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
9:26 a.m.
On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote:
The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that
Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your
expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a
distribution that does. Craig
"Love it or leave it."
Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a
community Linux distribution.
It is not a Craig White Linux distribution.
...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.
-Scott
10:30 a.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:26 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote:
> The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that
> Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your
> expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a
> distribution that does. Craig
"Love it or leave it."
Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a
community Linux distribution.
It is not a Craig White Linux distribution.
...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.
----
I don't recall ever professing to have any influence on the choices that
Fedora developers make nor do I ever use the users list as a soap box
for my thoughts on the matter. I am content to live with their decisions
and make the best of whatever short term issues arise and do bugzilla
reports when something fails to meet my expectations.
As for my opinion of Linus Torvalds - I don't think I have much of an
opinion since I have never met him, don't follow him on any social
networking forum, don't read his blogs and am of the belief that he
isn't using Fedora these days so I completely fail to see the purpose of
your above commentary except to provoke more irrelevance.
Yes, Fedora is a community based distribution - probably more so than
Ubuntu (see SABDFL) and you can have actual input into the decision
making process simply by getting involved. Of course that means doing
packaging or getting on the board of directors or clearly making efforts
beyond commenting from the peanut gallery.
As for "love it or leave it" - I suppose that is everyone's prerogative.
I am using Ubuntu on servers these days (as opposed to RHEL &/or CentOS
&/or SL &/or Oracle 'unbreakable' so seemingly moving to another distro
for my desktop is always an option... one that I considered before I did
a clean install of F16 last week. I use a Ubuntu desktop (via FreeNX) at
my work and I could easily use it instead of Fedora and it hardly
matters - so yes, 'love it or leave it' is clearly everyone's
prerogative.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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9:37 a.m.
On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's
hell to
see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
want that toy.
Finally, someone talking sense!
Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've
previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about.
In another message, you expressed the idea that we should (paraphrased)
"love it or leave it." But since you've previously revealed that you
are an Ubuntu user, you have no clue what we are talking about.
If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with
respectable ideas. "Stop using Fedora" is not one of them. "Linus'
opinion doesn't matter" is not one of them.
And so forth &c,
-Scott
4:20 a.m.
Am 03.12.2011 06:02, schrieb Craig White:
- that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and
needed
to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change',
good developers knowing the word "refactoring"
while you do refactoring the behavior MUST NOT change
bad developers are throwing all away, starting from scratch, getting
frustrated after a while because they recognize how much work would
it be to write all the existing things again - and so they decide
to decalre that all what they could not implement in der "new big thing"
is not needed and all is perfect as it is now - and sadly they seem
to believe what they try to sell the users
i know that now the next comes out and says "but they are getting not paid"
well - and if i make things not for the money i normally would not loved
to called a moron by the majority of users and if i do not want this
i have to act in a way that does not spit users in their face
4:09 a.m.
Am 03.12.2011 03:21, schrieb Christopher A. Williams:
PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be
greatly
impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
in this coming wave...
so this funny gui-designers should realize that it is idiotic to
try making the standard-interface touchscreen-optimized and
somehow you can use it with keyboard and mouse
there needs to be a option or detection if the UI is running
on a mobile device or om a classic desktop
on a classic desktop it MUST NOT waste space with large buttons
which you can hit with an arrow from the neighbours windows!
11:29 p.m.
On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote:
- you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks
about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your
whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
name? Craig
This is ludicrous.
Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted,
unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny
things, without ever having to do real work on a computer.
I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the
"Halloween" release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up
until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just
how much you've messed up, Son.
Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments --
and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out.
Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical
thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are
clearly unaware of having uttered. That, too, is your problem -- all
because you posted your flame bait.
Hell, isn't it?
-Scott
11:42 p.m.
On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote:
- you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks
about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your
whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
name? Craig
Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted,
unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny
things, without ever having to do real work on a computer.
I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the
"Halloween" release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up
until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just
how much you've messed up, Son.
Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments --
and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out.
Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical
thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are
clearly unaware of having uttered. That, too, is your problem -- all
because you posted your flame bait.
-Scott
11:36 p.m.
On 12/02/2011 08:48 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU
temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget
that actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I
can observe it degradation, with every passing month.
Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one
now, which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off
an internal hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys
nodes for its eight CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't
know anything about, so it just sits there, and tells me I'm running
at 0 degrees Celsius. There's still no weather panel wiget, to my
knowledge. At one point I have a dim recollection that
"gnome-power-manager-extras" existed, that added a comparable
watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the icon
just sits there with a single %-age label.
And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop
icons, and the evolution of the "have file-manager handle the desktop"
option in tweaktools.
BTW, I brought up these issues when I updated my laptop to F15, and it
was suggested I go tell it to the Gnome usability list.
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability
-Scott
11:02 p.m.
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:40 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
>>> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>>> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>>> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>>> actually matters.
>> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>>
>> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
>> does not matter.
>> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
>> opinions of end users don't matter.
> ----
> I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
> the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
>
> You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
> you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
> users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
> progress.
>
>
Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic.
In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for
people to customize their work environments? And poof! All gone!
But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes,
let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a "long time Linux
user", whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those
charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression.
Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the
logical fallacy we are being subjected to:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem
...but we already knew that, didn't we?
----
Considering...
- that you can have your beloved Gnome 2 for at least another 5 years on
RHEL 6 (or various rebuilds thereof),
- that Fedora embraces the latest technology advances and yes, that
includes Gnome,
- that approximately 3 years is considered a generation in terms of
computer technology which includes everything from hardware to end user
interfaces,
- that regardless of you feelings of Gnome 3, there are people who
actually like it,
- that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed
to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change',
- you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about
Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion,
your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
name?
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
10:48 p.m.
Craig White writes:
I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that
in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.
It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,
major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any
functional replacements, and every time someone points this out, they're
told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The
Better Way. There was a very good rant on Slashdot today, about an apparent
army of fired UI "experts" that, apparently, have nothing better to do than
invade existing projects, and remove existing functionality and replace it
with rounded corners and gradient background colors.
In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU
temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget that
actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I can
observe it degradation, with every passing month.
Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one now,
which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off an internal
hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys nodes for its eight
CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't know anything about, so it
just sits there, and tells me I'm running at 0 degrees Celsius. There's
still no weather panel wiget, to my knowledge. At one point I have a dim
recollection that "gnome-power-manager-extras" existed, that added a
comparable watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the
icon just sits there with a single %-age label.
And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop icons,
and the evolution of the "have file-manager handle the desktop" option in
tweaktools.
9:44 p.m.
On 12/03/2011 04:10 AM, Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
>> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>> actually matters.
>
> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>
> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
> does not matter.
> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
> opinions of end users don't matter.
----
I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
ACK.
You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an
omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.
Being one of these long time Linux users, I won't deny there is some
truth in what you say. The bigger question is if Gnome 3 is actual
progress or an "epic fail"?
When being presented Gnome 3, my feeling were the same as I had when my
then-3-year-old nice had proudly presented me here "flying horse".
"Look Uncle, my horse has learned to fly" (She had attached a couple of
plastic feathers to her plush pony's back and was throwing it into my
direction.).
Ralf
9:10 p.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
> actually matters.
So this is what I hear you saying.....
Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
does not matter.
Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
opinions of end users don't matter.
----
I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
9:40 p.m.
On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
>> Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
>> a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
>> those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
>> actually matters.
> So this is what I hear you saying.....
>
> Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
> does not matter.
> Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
> opinions of end users don't matter.
----
I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.
Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic.
In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for
people to customize their work environments? And poof! All gone!
But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes,
let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a "long time Linux
user", whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those
charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression.
Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the
logical fallacy we are being subjected to:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem
...but we already knew that, didn't we?
-Scott
8:41 p.m.
On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he
is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
actually matters.
So this is what I hear you saying.....
Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion
does not matter.
Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the
opinions of end users don't matter.
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools. -- Douglas Adams in "Mostly Harmless
8:15 p.m.
Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
On Fri,
Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
actually matters.
Yes of course, old boy. Quite amusing. More to the point: we tittered when we read that
Linus had an opinion, and that some thought his opinions were regarded much more than
those found in our ivory towers from which we post to a Fedora mailing list.
(Signed)
Wilbur Tanenbaum, esq., &c.
Postscript,
"Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal
computers."
http://www.zdnet.com
Say no more! Such evidence is more than enough to establish just cause for amusement!
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
7:50 p.m.
Am 03.12.2011 02:38, schrieb Craig White:
Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he
is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert
maybe some of the self called ui-experts should take a deep breath
for one or two years and left the users in peace with their next big
thing so that people which are working with their computers are not
permanently interrupted
linus is not a ui-expert but he has more sensibility what users
needs than most of the experts - users are needing workspaces
which are not chaning their whole behavior each year
"Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to
the
Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers."
this is nonsense
the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone
which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these
people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
theer are enough people working with their computers and not only
webbrowsing and write some mails!
9:33 a.m.
On 12/5/2011 5:48 PM, Tim wrote:
On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 09:20 -0800, Robert M. Witkop wrote:
Years ago, I also used computers long before we'd even heard of Windows.
My own first real personal computer was the Amiga, and that was chosen
after being thoroughly put off by the other personal computers that I'd
had a play with (that others owned). I liked it for what it was, how it
worked (much better than the alternatives, at the time), and what could
be done with it. I could look after it quite easily, and there were few
secrets.
A few years later, I faced the no-choice of having to get a PC, to be
able to do stuff in a PC-only world (or the majority of it being that
way, that it might as well be PC-only). And I got sick of it real
quick. It was, and still is, a suicidal OS, plagued with problems, and
probably always will be. Another thing that really pissed me off, about
it, was how much of it was secret. I got really really sick of the "see
your admin" error messages. I was the admin, there was no one to ask.
The built-in help was crap, the manual gave no information about the
issues. Help on the WWW was far from satisfactory, and even when you
did find an answer that was correct, the solutions were utterly
ludicrous from a computing point of view (the design/philosophy of
Windows is just plain nuts). And really, the only way to know what
you're doing (if you wanted to make a job out of IT), rather than be
some klutz who might stumble on a few things, was to go on some
expensive training course, again and again. And, when you look into
what some of these course were about, it was galling. Networking
training reduced down from knowing about administrating TCP/IP, to
merely learning the crapped out way that Windows does it. Forget about
learning about DNS, or TCP/IP traffic, or any of that, just learn which
boxes to fill in for this version of Windows. Then go on another
expensive course when they release a new version. One of these courses
was little more than what you see in the setting up your network, in the
installation guide for Fedora. It was that /sparse/ in info. Fill in
the blanks, don't actually learn about what you're doing.
Then, at long last, Linux came to a point where it was usable as a
personal computer, in the current world. I dropped Windows in a flash.
Never regretted it. Enjoyed the lack of secrecy (documentation, things
working in a sensible manner that you could work out the local
implementation, source code if you wanted to peruse it, no hidden files
on your drive from package installations that you can't tell what will
put where), and the return to a sane filing system (non-suicidal filing
system, files stored in sensible places, separation of system's from
application's from user's files). But over the last few years I keep
seeing one Linux-thing after another going Windows-like (dumb ideas,
cloning Windows, no documentation, go see your admin). With developers
either copying the worlds worst examples of computing (i.e. Windows),
and not knowing (because they've never used other systems), or not
acknowledging that the Windows way is the horrible way. Or it's Windows
developers migrating to a different OS (Linux) and just carrying on
doing the same crap, instead of learning how to do thing in a better
way. I suspect the latter, since it seems to be that it used to be Unix
users going off to Linux, since Unix was expensive but they could afford
to personally use Linux as a similar alternative, so we got a lot of the
Unix mindset (designed by computer boffins). But now it seems to be
Windows users doing the same thing, migrating from an expensive or
pirated product, to something they can afford to play with, and they're
building stuff (but with all the lack of experience of a teenage hacker,
someone who just cobbles together something that seems to work, but
doesn't integrate well into an established system, and then they mess up
rest of the system to suit their hack, instead of fitting in).
> I know "opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has
> on", and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so
> different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not
> put out as a revision.
I tend to agree. If some of the Gnome developers (or the same applies
to KDE), wanted to go out in a radically different direction, they
should have started their own new project, and left the current one to
those interested in it.
If the old Gnome, or KDE, or whatever, continued or died a natural
death, that would be it. The current debacle has been a forced
termination. It virtually precludes some from continuing on with
working on the older desktop, because it's been deliberately poisoned.
And it's not just the change in direction, it's the huge increase in
computing power that's a big problem. Some years ago, Compiz came out,
with fancy flashy effects for your desktop (pretty, but unessential).
That required a 3D accelerated card, which wasn't appreciated very much.
Those of us with the hardware had a play, but would notice that Compiz,
by itself, was using almost all the available resources. The computer
was getting sluggish, the card was getting very hot. Never mind wanting
to do other things with your computer, than merely run the desktop. I
want to browse three page, at the same time, while writing a document,
while listening to some sound file... I could actually do that
pre-bloated desktop era. And the new Gnome, requiring lots grunt, has
gone down the same path. *And* by all accounts, the fallback option
still has bloated needs.
Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially
necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset. And it doesn't work well for
Linux, because you also need Linux drivers for the hardware, and you
find that your hardware purchase choices are narrowed down to about
three items.
No, I'm not being a stick in the mud, I'm being pragmatic. My design
background is more electronics than computing, but the same principles
apply. Designing something with extreme, and difficult to fulfil,
requirements, is not sensible.
+50
6:48 p.m.
On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 09:20 -0800, Robert M. Witkop wrote:
I upgraded my hardware about the time that F15 came out, so I
decided
that I would install f15 instead of f14. When I found that gnome did
not run out of the box, I had to make a decision, to I want to go
through a learning curve, or do I want to develop systems.
If I wanted windoz, I would run windoz.
Years ago, I also used computers long before we'd even heard of Windows.
My own first real personal computer was the Amiga, and that was chosen
after being thoroughly put off by the other personal computers that I'd
had a play with (that others owned). I liked it for what it was, how it
worked (much better than the alternatives, at the time), and what could
be done with it. I could look after it quite easily, and there were few
secrets.
A few years later, I faced the no-choice of having to get a PC, to be
able to do stuff in a PC-only world (or the majority of it being that
way, that it might as well be PC-only). And I got sick of it real
quick. It was, and still is, a suicidal OS, plagued with problems, and
probably always will be. Another thing that really pissed me off, about
it, was how much of it was secret. I got really really sick of the "see
your admin" error messages. I was the admin, there was no one to ask.
The built-in help was crap, the manual gave no information about the
issues. Help on the WWW was far from satisfactory, and even when you
did find an answer that was correct, the solutions were utterly
ludicrous from a computing point of view (the design/philosophy of
Windows is just plain nuts). And really, the only way to know what
you're doing (if you wanted to make a job out of IT), rather than be
some klutz who might stumble on a few things, was to go on some
expensive training course, again and again. And, when you look into
what some of these course were about, it was galling. Networking
training reduced down from knowing about administrating TCP/IP, to
merely learning the crapped out way that Windows does it. Forget about
learning about DNS, or TCP/IP traffic, or any of that, just learn which
boxes to fill in for this version of Windows. Then go on another
expensive course when they release a new version. One of these courses
was little more than what you see in the setting up your network, in the
installation guide for Fedora. It was that /sparse/ in info. Fill in
the blanks, don't actually learn about what you're doing.
Then, at long last, Linux came to a point where it was usable as a
personal computer, in the current world. I dropped Windows in a flash.
Never regretted it. Enjoyed the lack of secrecy (documentation, things
working in a sensible manner that you could work out the local
implementation, source code if you wanted to peruse it, no hidden files
on your drive from package installations that you can't tell what will
put where), and the return to a sane filing system (non-suicidal filing
system, files stored in sensible places, separation of system's from
application's from user's files). But over the last few years I keep
seeing one Linux-thing after another going Windows-like (dumb ideas,
cloning Windows, no documentation, go see your admin). With developers
either copying the worlds worst examples of computing (i.e. Windows),
and not knowing (because they've never used other systems), or not
acknowledging that the Windows way is the horrible way. Or it's Windows
developers migrating to a different OS (Linux) and just carrying on
doing the same crap, instead of learning how to do thing in a better
way. I suspect the latter, since it seems to be that it used to be Unix
users going off to Linux, since Unix was expensive but they could afford
to personally use Linux as a similar alternative, so we got a lot of the
Unix mindset (designed by computer boffins). But now it seems to be
Windows users doing the same thing, migrating from an expensive or
pirated product, to something they can afford to play with, and they're
building stuff (but with all the lack of experience of a teenage hacker,
someone who just cobbles together something that seems to work, but
doesn't integrate well into an established system, and then they mess up
rest of the system to suit their hack, instead of fitting in).
I know "opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone
has
on", and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so
different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not
put out as a revision.
I tend to agree. If some of the Gnome developers (or the same applies
to KDE), wanted to go out in a radically different direction, they
should have started their own new project, and left the current one to
those interested in it.
If the old Gnome, or KDE, or whatever, continued or died a natural
death, that would be it. The current debacle has been a forced
termination. It virtually precludes some from continuing on with
working on the older desktop, because it's been deliberately poisoned.
And it's not just the change in direction, it's the huge increase in
computing power that's a big problem. Some years ago, Compiz came out,
with fancy flashy effects for your desktop (pretty, but unessential).
That required a 3D accelerated card, which wasn't appreciated very much.
Those of us with the hardware had a play, but would notice that Compiz,
by itself, was using almost all the available resources. The computer
was getting sluggish, the card was getting very hot. Never mind wanting
to do other things with your computer, than merely run the desktop. I
want to browse three page, at the same time, while writing a document,
while listening to some sound file... I could actually do that
pre-bloated desktop era. And the new Gnome, requiring lots grunt, has
gone down the same path. *And* by all accounts, the fallback option
still has bloated needs.
Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially
necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset. And it doesn't work well for
Linux, because you also need Linux drivers for the hardware, and you
find that your hardware purchase choices are narrowed down to about
three items.
No, I'm not being a stick in the mud, I'm being pragmatic. My design
background is more electronics than computing, but the same principles
apply. Designing something with extreme, and difficult to fulfil,
requirements, is not sensible.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
7:31 a.m.
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:29 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote:
> - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks
> about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your
> whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
> before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
> name? Craig
This is ludicrous.
Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted,
unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny
things, without ever having to do real work on a computer.
I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the
"Halloween" release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up
until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just
how much you've messed up, Son.
Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments --
and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out.
Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical
thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are
clearly unaware of having uttered. That, too, is your problem -- all
because you posted your flame bait.
Hell, isn't it?
----
I get the impression that you're suggesting that I lack critical
thinking skills but you have them. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that
thinking for the moment, let me just point out that Gnome 2 is dead and
won't be coming to another Fedora release ever - little critical
thinking needs to be done to understand that.
As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
want that toy.
The real flamebait here was Ed's original post in the thread about your
beloved Linus embracing Gnome 3 - his earlier dis or his current embrace
of Gnome 3 really doesn't matter... Gnome 2 is dead save for any
reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur).
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
7:14 a.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 08:40 +0000, JB wrote:
Craig White <craigwhite <at> azapple.com> writes:
Man, you brought me back from hibernation again ...
----
was not my intention to do so... take responsibility for your own
actions rather than blame others
----
That user base (technical and non-technical) started to run away from
RH and
Fedora (see the stats I presented to you here) already in anticipation of
future "progress" (GNOME 3, systemd, SELinux, etc).
You got a bill for your "advances" and "progress".
Now deal with it.
----
SELinux is quite good actually. Systemd, I have had little reason to
interact with it so far and I expect that when I do, I will curse for
having to learn new tricks but eventually figure out that there's wisdom
here. Been using Ubuntu for 8 months now, still unclear of some of the
upstart logic but it's obvious that the SysV stuff was tired.
----
>
> - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about
> Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion,
>
> your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
> before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
> name?
>
> Craig
>
You are a clueless troll. Educate yourself.
----
Sorry to see that you have degenerated to making this so personal but
hey, if that's what comprises effective argumentation for you, then go
for it.
The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that Fedora's
embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your
expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a distribution
that does.
Craig
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2:40 a.m.
Craig White <craigwhite <at> azapple.com> writes:
Man, you brought me back from hibernation again ...
...
Considering...
- that you can have your beloved Gnome 2 for at least another 5 years on
RHEL 6 (or various rebuilds thereof),
But you do not have a workable GNOME DE in Fedora. This fact introduced a lot
of havoc to real users computing and business environments.
As an example of many, this recent post:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-December/408873.html
This is how you kill your users base, in particular the precious corporate
one, which is by no means part of sandalistas movement ...
- that Fedora embraces the latest technology advances and yes, that
includes Gnome,
There are many people who doubt that. Change for the sake of change ?
I have already explained on this list how parallelized SysV Init/LSB scripts
are equal in speed and superior in their mainainability and other qualities
to systemd.
There is no question that the child of "progress" GNOME 3 is a basket case,
more than one year after its introduction to Fedora code base.
What "advances" ?
- that approximately 3 years is considered a generation in terms of
computer technology which includes everything from hardware to end user
interfaces,
I think you should stick to your toys and sandbox ...
This is a pseudo-progress gimmicky statement usually introduced by market and
technological newcomers, and the parasitic IT and accounting consultancies,
who benefit from that excessive pseudo-reengineering crap.
Let me give you an example so you can educate yourself.
IBM was and is a mainframe powerhouse. In the mid 90's was forced into
reinventing itself by some emerging technologies (Internet, etc). After DEC
and some others gave up, even one of the main shareholders of IBM admitted
they feared the end as well. Real or unreal fear ?
Now, you know what they did ? They hired a relatively obscure CEO who
understood customers/users base (being himself one of them).
He listened to their needs !
He reorganized IBM around services, added some products that would supplement
their software offerings, and ... basically stuck to IBMs guns, that is their
mainframes.
He assumed, quite correctly, that in the age of proliferating IT and Internet
there will be a lot of already present and future data to be managed and
processed in the backends of data centers.
He did not kill the company or its products, he supplemented and reorganized.
They are still a mainframe powerhowse, even more than in the past.
I call it "back to the future" for IBM.
Do you understand "progress" now ?
- that regardless of you feelings of Gnome 3, there are people who
actually like it,
Yes, you and some other clueless twitters.
- that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed
to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change',
Yes, this is true, code needs rewriting and refactoring, sometimes even
redesigning.
Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
preparing a spin with GNOME 3 where it would be developed and tested for
a different class of devices, in anticipation of new technologies and user
needs/habits.
When it was proposed on this list, some anonimous joker told us "Rejected !".
So much for wisdom of sandalistas.
Remember, on or off salons, a sandalista is a sandalista is a sandalista ...
So, the primary reason GNOME devs and their handlers dropped GNOME 2 was their
desire to introduce new GUI for the supposed wave of the future ("smart"
things, which are actually pretty dumb and limiting to their users; and
somewhat more "smart" netbooks, preferably with that powerhouse joke called
Atom chip from Intel).
By doing that they made themselves a laughing stock of DEs (in particular GUI
space) and screwed up their current user base.
That user base (technical and non-technical) started to run away from RH and
Fedora (see the stats I presented to you here) already in anticipation of
future "progress" (GNOME 3, systemd, SELinux, etc).
You got a bill for your "advances" and "progress".
Now deal with it.
- you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about
Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion,
your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
name?
Craig
You are a clueless troll. Educate yourself.
JB
8:21 p.m.
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 02:50 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> "Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
> Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
> probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
> connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers."
this is nonsense
the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone
which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these
people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
theer are enough people working with their computers and not only
webbrowsing and write some mails!
To the contrary, if you know the full context of Paul Maritz's quote
here, he actually makes complete sense.
I have heard him speak about this in-person and his overall points are
very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of Internet
connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet
category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only*
devices. Paul also clearly believes that, as a result of this change,
Windows as an operating system will continue to lose relevance in the
coming years. That's saying a lot considering he is the person who is
largely responsible for engineering the dominance of Windows 95 (whether
you'd call how he did it cheating or not).
He also believes operating systems like Linux will continue to gain in
acceptance and popularity over this time frame, but that this will still
mainly be from non-PC devices. He often refers to this as the coming
Post-PC era.
I believe he is largely correct.
The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen. Smartphones
are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families
because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and
do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
difficult to use for producing information than PCs at the moment. They
are equally as good for those who are primarily consumers of
information. Once tablet manufacturers actually decide to deal with
issues around printing and getting more effective input methods in
place, tablet acceptance will likely take off like a shot.
PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
in this coming wave...
Chris
--
==========================================
"The best way to sound like you know what you're talking about
is to know what you're talking about."
--Harvey Mackay
7:38 p.m.
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 20:38 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
I'm a long time KDE user and survivor of the move to KDE 4.
Thought some of you may be interested in the view point of Linus....
"Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is
starting to look almost usable.
Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell
setup and made available in the regular "system config" thing rather
than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that "clean
default", but make them easy to find and part of the standard install.
----
Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
actually matters.
What I did see on the Ubuntu list was a reference to this...
http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/things-to-tweak-after-installing-ubuntu.html
which I thought was a rather helpful page and wonder if someone has done
something similar for Fedora (though much of the Ubuntu tweaks are
suitable for Fedora). One of the things I like about Ubuntu is that
there are some resources out there that don't seem to exist for Fedora.
and as long as I am quoting & linking, I found this quote (attributable
to Paul Mauritz of VMWare) to be very intriguing...
"Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers."
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/can-ubuntu-linux-win-on-smartphones...
Craig
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4539
days inactive
4543
days old
80 comments
22 participants
participants (22)
-
Aaron Konstam -
Alan Cox -
Antonio Olivares -
Bill Davidsen -
Christopher A Williams -
Craig White -
Ed Greshko -
Fernando Cassia -
Ian Malone -
JB -
Joe Zeff -
Lars E. Pettersson -
Marko Vojinovic -
Mike Chambers -
mike cloaked -
Ralf Corsepius -
Reindl Harald -
Robert M. Witkop -
Sam Varshavchik -
Scott Doty -
Steve Lindemann -
Tim