Mark wrote:

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value). All vote plz

What's next? Voting on ssh configuration options?

Mindless +1 and =1 will yield to nothing but number pushing and not a serious debate.

I vote that we don't vote on configuration changes and let the upstream developers and package maintainers decide. Voting on every configuration change, we would obvious not be getting anywhere. The decision will be an upstream change or in other circumstances, the maintainer of the software in question. If the maintainers want to do a survey, they can on their own or ask for help if needed.

Rahul

Mark wrote:

Redhat is eager to change things when they might get in trouble if they have it in.. like codec support. You guys are killing out more then enough in other packages to save your own asses and you tell us that you want to follow upstream..

If a software is not included at all in Fedora, then there is no modification and upstream is preserved as it is. For many others like in the case of gstreamer, the extra codecs or functionality is separated cleanly as plugins and we don't have to modify anything but only pick and choose, what we can include. Only as a last resort, is something patched and that is because it is the only legal choice at that point. It is still a unfortunate divergence and adds a ongoing maintenance overhead for the package maintainers. Adding more pain to the problem doesn't make sense.

Refer http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream

i agree on that with CODE changes.

i disagree on that with config changes! config things are just the the values set by the creators that they think are best to use. That doesn't make them THE best settings out there. Don't be so freaking hard on config changes!

Code and configuration cannot be easily separated like this and changes always have a associated cost. Atleast in one package I maintain, a very small and simple configuration change resulted in a potential security hole (only in rawhide for a short while but still ..)

I am just trying to get a clear signal out that there is something in fedora that the people using fedora want to see different

It doesn't seem the right path to doing that, to me.

Rahul

You can change the configuration in no time, but for me, the default works good!

-- Armin

"Character is a muscle"

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Mark wrote:

...

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value). All vote plz

What's next? Voting on ssh configuration options?

Mindless +1 and =1 will yield to nothing but number pushing and not a serious debate.

I vote that we don't vote on configuration changes and let the upstream developers and package maintainers decide. Voting on every configuration change, we would obvious not be getting anywhere. The decision will be an upstream change or in other circumstances, the maintainer of the software in question. If the maintainers want to do a survey, they can on their own or ask for help if needed.

Once you use a package a lot on a number of platforms, you develop your own 'profile' that you change to as your 'second step' (after install/ID create).

I remember with IKEv2 in the IETF the debates to my cipher-suites to ensure that only 'safe' combinations were used (matching security strengths). The debates amoung a few hundred security wizards and a bunch of vendors was mind-numbing.

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:59:34 -0500 Robert Moskowitz wrote:

I also miss a feature I have on my Centos 5 systems: I can right click on the desktop and hit 't' to open a terminal window. I don't have to put a terminal window laucher on the panel if I don't want to. I need LOTS of terminal windows to make it through the day....

yum install nautilus-open-terminal

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:

Mark wrote:

...

Redhat is eager to change things when they might get in trouble if they have it in.. like codec support. You guys are killing out more then enough in other packages to save your own asses and you tell us that you want to follow upstream..

If a software is not included at all in Fedora, then there is no modification and upstream is preserved as it is. For many others like in the case of gstreamer, the extra codecs or functionality is separated cleanly as plugins and we don't have to modify anything but only pick and choose, what we can include. Only as a last resort, is something patched and that is because it is the only legal choice at that point. It is still a unfortunate divergence and adds a ongoing maintenance overhead for the package maintainers. Adding more pain to the problem doesn't make sense.

Refer http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream

i agree on that with CODE changes.

...

i disagree on that with config changes! config things are just the the values set by the creators that they think are best to use. That doesn't make them THE best settings out there. Don't be so freaking hard on config changes!

Code and configuration cannot be easily separated like this and changes always have a associated cost. Atleast in one package I maintain, a very small and simple configuration change resulted in a potential security hole (only in rawhide for a short while but still ..)

...

I am just trying to get a clear signal out that there is something in fedora that the people using fedora want to see different

It doesn't seem the right path to doing that, to me.

Rahul

I just can't resist to comment on you just to BREAK your arguments that settings have to be made upstream as well.

Oke. I browsed through the fedora cvs for a few minutes looking for firefox because i know a setting got in there a while ago to "fix" something. That something was that the scrolling was going slow in firefox when compositing was enabled. which is especially notable in gmail in long messages.

Now that firefox issue never got resolved on fedora but the value: general.smoothScroll was set to true while the upstream was false! and that setting just lets firefox scroll with less lines per scroll. the issue that firefox scrolls slow when compositing is enabled is still valid.. still not fixed.. and that conf value is still set to true! while upstream is still FALSE! that setting got through relatively fast (mather of hours or days.. don't remember exactly) and the proof is here: http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/devel/firefox/firefox-redhat-default-pre...

Now that's just one thing you guys changed in firefox. there is a lot more that got changed in firefox and isn't changed upstream! just go through the firefox files on the fedora CVS. So your argument that confis settings will have to be applied upstream is hereby smashed to the ground because other packages don't keep that same "deal". Other packages get config setting changes so WHY are you making such a hard deal of nautilus?

O and don't believe that you guys don't patch the hell out of packages? look at apache, look at php, look at mysql, look at kde... look at nearly EVERY package that is in fedora. And those patches are the hard ones!

Then for the fedora bookmarks in firefox.. those are relatively easy to add but to we want them? are those requested by the users? NO! are those done anyway? YES! are those upstream? NO! are those in fedora? YES!

And to your latest post here: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:06 AM, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:

Suren Karapetyan wrote:

...

Not in this case. Here we can easily separate a default checkbox from code change.

Nothing is as easy as it looks. You have to patch software, patch documentation, patch translations and test them. All deviations from upstream carry risks. Then there would be differences between upstream and some distributions. Users who have to deal with multiple distributions have to deal with these differences.

If there is a change required, talk within the upstream community or have a real discussion with the package maintainers and try to convince them instead of pointless voting in the development mailing list (which is far from representative of a regular user base, would make them feel forced). If the maintainers have agreed to a vote, then fine. If not, it makes no difference and just wastes time. Don't do it. It just provides false hope and leads to more disappointment. Not worth it, for a easily changed setting.

Rahul

Oh men, i'm so starting to hate you. your reasons are broken and smashed to the ground by what i said above! get fedora in line with what you say or don't say a thing!

So.. you want us/me to contact the maintainers of nautilus. So be it! Will do so in my next post

Sorry for the mad post but i'm just getting kinda frustrated by one person here.

Mark wrote:

i agree on that with CODE changes. i disagree on that with config changes! config things are just the the values set by the creators that they think are best to use. That doesn't make them THE best settings out there. Don't be so freaking hard on config changes!

+1, customizing configuration is really not a big deal at all. Many of our default configurations are customized in some way.

Or do you want me to submit a bug report to suggest that config changes should be allowed in fedora! but code changes shouldn't (unless it could possibly end up in patent lawsuits)

-1, code changes are allowed and should remain so. We already have the WhyUpstream page providing some guidance on what kind of changes are reasonable. How to actually handle this should be the maintainer's call, it really depends on the package, and also on the nature of the individual change (e.g. making some program work with PulseAudio is definitely worth patching).

Kevin Kofler

Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

-1

I love the way nautilus work now and I don't like the browser mode.

-1 on voting in mailinglists. But I like the spatial nautilus so much that I couldn't resist this time.

/Dennis

["Followup-To:" header set to gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel.]

Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Read http://slashdot.org/features/98/10/13/1423253.shtml three times and only then continue in writing messages to this thread. :)

Matěj

On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 21:56 +0100, Mark wrote:

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Hate voting, but -1

Try using Shift-DoubleClick the next time you open a window while in Spatial Mode. There are lots of other tricks apparently, but that one keeps my window count low....

--Rob

Mark wrote:

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Possibly because the two seconds it takes to set-up by the user is easy enough to accomplish.

The problem, I see is basically just getting new Gnome users, to where the help is: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/desktop-user-guide/en/sn-nautilus-behavior.htm...

I think perhaps, a search link on the main page: http://fedoraproject.org/ may be useful.

akin to: http://www.linux.ie/

Frank

PS: Deliberately not cross-posted

Mike Cloaked wrote:

Frank Cox-2 wrote:

...

yum install nautilus-open-terminal

Indeed it does work when right clicking to give an option to open a terminal window though when doing this in f10 it opens a terminal in ~/Desktop by default.

How can you change the default directory for the terminal window that is created? (i.e. the home directory or ~/Documents)

Sorry to answer my own question but I found the answer looking back through the posts on this list from a while ago on a different thread:

"Make sure you have gconf-editor installed, if not 'yum install gconf-editor'. Once installed run gconf-editor and then go the Apps section, then look for nautilus-open-terminal. Put a check mark in the desktop_opens_home_dir entry. It will then go back to its old behaviour. "

That works fine....(I did log out and back in to make sure of changes sticking)

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Noel Zeng inkybutton@gmail.com wrote:

Mark <markg85 <at> gmail.com> writes:

...

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Hi all,

I decided to set up a poll in Fedora Forum - http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 - vote there guys!

Regards, Noel.

Nice! At this moment there are 10 votes already. all in favor of the browser mode. I, of cause, voted as well ^_^

Ed Greshko wrote:

Mark wrote:

...

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Noel Zeng inkybutton@gmail.com wrote:

...

Mark <markg85 <at> gmail.com> writes:

...

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Hi all,

I decided to set up a poll in Fedora Forum - http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=208330 - vote there guys!

Regards, Noel.

Nice! At this moment there are 10 votes already. all in favor of the browser mode. I, of cause, voted as well ^_^

Woopie....

I hope you realized this type of "poll" is totally unscientific and meaningless.

Well, scientific or not, I never use Nautilus in any mode other than browser mode. I do this by checking the check-off box in the "Behavior" options that says "Always use browser mode."

For the life of me, I cannot understand the thinking of the inventors, or the adherents, of the so-called spatial mode. Why force a user to open a window for every single folder as one opens one subfolder after another? Now I can understand, up to a point, wanting this as an option--say, to be able to move a file from one folder to another. (Although I hope everyone realizes that trying to use Nautilus after executing the command known as "su" gives a hiccup, and if logging-in a root is no longer to be allowed, that could get to be a serious problem.) But if all one wants to do is open a file-management window and then open a file with an associated application, one might have to close ten windows in the desktop if spatial mode has been in operation.

For that reason I never use spatial mode. If I want to open two file browser windows, then that's exactly what I do.

It occurs to me that the development and user communities cannot seem to make up their collective minds whether they want to encourage their users to use xterm (or even log in on Runlevel 3) exclusively for all file-management tasks, or to use a graphic desktop. And if you're going to encourage the latter, then it hardly serves the purpose to make a key graphical applet, namely your file manager, difficult or even annoying to use.

Temlakos

Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko <at> greshko.com> writes:

Woopie....

I hope you realized this type of "poll" is totally unscientific and meaningless.

Unscientific and meaningless? How so? I bet you didn't even read the poll.

I kept my personal opinion out of my poll question and my post. Neutral and fair descriptions are given to each of the modes. The illustrative screenshots are not biased: in fact, I deliberately didn't use a deeply nested directory to show that Spatial mode makes a mess with millions of windows!

Although not all Fedora users are affiliated with Fedora Forum, a wide range, if not all of Fedora users are represented in FF. This is evident from the range of questions asked in the forum: ranging from "Linux newb *Fedora 10 install problem*" to problems with chkrootkit. I believe that Fedora Forum is the place to ask the question, and the answer will be representative of the wider Fedora community. (which favours change, 20 for and 1 against at the moment)

And BTW, why hasn't any opponent to change addressed these good points? *That most new Fedora users migrated from Windows, which shows folders like a browser. To help them adjust, avoid confusion and therefore increasing the chance of them stay using Fedora, isn't it better to give them by default familiar interface and ways of doing things? *That spatial mode leaves behind tons of windows, inconvenient for users. And I know you can use Shift-Doubleclick or simply change it browser mode, but why on earth would most of Fedora users have to suffer this inconvenience simply because the powers that be happened to like it? *That the only supposed advantage is that it mimics real life, therefore more intuitive. Hell, it's annoying to open a packet within a packet within a packet on a real life desktop, where a pile of rubbish is left on it,so why repeat that in the virtual world? Here's a video that illustrates my point - I'm using it out of context, but nevertheless:http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1064947/rocketboom_earth_day_2007/.

Regards, Noel.

Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko <at> greshko.com> writes:

Doesn't matter....

It is only a poll of those people who have decided to respond. No better than the various CNN online polls an those types.

So according to you, there won't be a way of determining whether people like something or not? Because, if one comes up with poll results that are contrary to your preferences, you can just dismiss it with a "oh some people didn't respond". I believe that those who responded are representative of the Fedora community, per reason in previous post. Your comments don't seem to be constructive here, considering the above, and also the fact that you didn't even bother to look at the poll that you're dismissing.

Regards, Noel.

--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Noel Zeng inkybutton@gmail.com wrote:

From: Noel Zeng inkybutton@gmail.com Subject: Re: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11 To: fedora-list@redhat.com Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 9:04 PM Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko <at> greshko.com> writes:

...

Doesn't matter....

It is only a poll of those people who have decided to

respond. No

...

better than the various CNN online polls an those

types.

So according to you, there won't be a way of determining whether people like something or not? Because, if one comes up with poll results that are contrary to your preferences, you can just dismiss it with a "oh some people didn't respond". I believe that those who responded are representative of the Fedora community, per reason in previous post. Your comments don't seem to be constructive here, considering the above, and also the fact that you didn't even bother to look at the poll that you're dismissing.

Regards, Noel.

--

I like the browser view +1, but regarding the poll. What I believe Ed refers to is the fact that the poll will not make the developers change their minds, although many people would hope that it does, I like browser mode myself and I always change it. But who knows with these things.

It reminds me of testing. There is too much testing going on in schools. School districts benchmarking the kids too much. In my opinion, the numbers might not mean much, they are just benchmarks. They just have to pass a Statewide exam and in the end the other numbers were "meaningless". That in testing, here with respect to the stats collected, some people might just believe why would developers care about what the end users want?, Just like a restaurant where it said:

"This is not Burger King! You get it my way or you don't get the dammn thing!"

While it is good in some ways to have these polls, in the end the decision is still left to the developers. Will they "cave in" to what the users want? This is the big question here.

My $0.02

Regards,

Antonio

Noel Zeng wrote:

Ed Greshko <Ed.Greshko <at> greshko.com> writes:

...

It isn't the content of the poll....it is the polling methodology.

But, never mind. I'm glad important things are decided by these "polls".

I stand by my poll. You haven't addressed my points about the methodology, as stated in my first post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_access_poll

And other more reliable sources....

I have never said that polls should be the way of deciding things. I'm saying that the wider Fedora community's input is important, and the developers should take the input into account. I thought this poll would clarify where the wider community stands on the issue.

I hope that developers won't play the "I'm-the-boss" card in the end and say that, well, too bad, this is a meritocracy. It may be so, but how the community wants things is important as well.

Regards, Noel.

On Sun, 2008-12-21 at 04:46 +0000, Noel Zeng wrote:

That spatial mode leaves behind tons of windows, inconvenient for users. And I know you can use Shift-Doubleclick or simply change it browser mode, but why on earth would most of Fedora users have to suffer this inconvenience simply because the powers that be happened to like it?

In general, when one clicks into a directory, they want to see something inside it (i.e. they're looking for *a* *file*). There's no additional inference that says they need the prior directory/directories to remain open at the same time. I'd say it's far more likely that they don't, particularly if they're drilling down through several directories. It's more practical to use a hotkey to make your new directory open in a new window, on demand, rather than by default.

You wonder if people making these decisions actually make any observations about how others use computers.

Gag me with a pitch-fork. {^_^} ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark" markg85@gmail.com To: "Development discussions related to Fedora" fedora-devel-list@redhat.com; "Community assistance, encouragement,and advice for using Fedora." fedora-list@redhat.com Sent: Thursday, 2008, December 18 12:56 Subject: Call for vote: Nautilus use Browser view for fedora 11

Hey,

The question is simple: Lets use the browser view of nautilus in the next fedora release.

Motivation: A new window for each folder that i open is so painful!!

1. My taskbar fills up in notime each time i open a new folder
2. New features of nautilus: tabbed browsing! completely useless if

your not using the browser mode 3. Tabbed browsing (files/folders or web) is "hot" these days 4. It feels so.. old (windows 95? 3.11?) just to name a few

Cross posted to the devel list because it's for the next fedora version (currently in development thus the devel list)

Bug report: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477052 (wow! i couldn't find an existing one for this! made one myself)

So, lets vote:

+1 from me

I hope this can be done for Fedora 11 (it's just changing one gconf value). All vote plz

Mark.

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