3:31 p.m.
So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when F17
came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once again,
several of them don't appear to have even been looked over *at all* by
the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother sometimes...
Tet
--
"Java is a DSL for taking large XML files and converting them to stack
traces" -- Bulat Shakirzyanov
5:38 p.m.
On 08/02/13 06:25, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2013 14:25:30 -0700
Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us> wrote:
> On 08/01/2013 02:07 PM, David wrote:
>> On 8/1/2013 4:31 PM, Tethys wrote:
>>> So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when
>>> F17 came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once
>>> again, several of them don't appear to have even been looked over
>>> *at all* by the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother
>>> sometimes...
>> Are they still active 'in' Fedora 18 or fedora 19? If yes then
>> reenter them.
>>
>> If not? Maybe you should update your version to solve your problem?
> I think you missed his (and my) point. What good is it to open a bug
> report early in a version's life if the only time you get a response
> is when it's closed at EOL for that version?
Speaking hypothetically (and playing the devil's advocate a bit), the
fact that the bugreports were not responded to doesn't mean that they
were not looked at or maybe reported upstream. It can happen that the
upstream devs already knew about the bug and had a fix in a later
version, which would come with the next version of Fedora. Nobody
bothered to answer since it didn't require any further input from the
OP.
While one could consider not answering a bugreport to be a display of
bad manners, David is right that you should check if the bug is
resolved in the later versions of Fedora before getting angry about
being ignored.
Yep.... I just got 3 closures of bugs reported in F17 that were looked at and
subsequently fixed in F18 but not back ported. I know there will be several other when
F18 reaches EOL since the next version of LibreOffice fixed some and F18 will remain at
3.X of LO.
I've not felt ignored.
--
Getting tired of non-Fedora discussions and self-serving posts
3:38 p.m.
On 08/01/2013 01:31 PM, Tethys wrote:
So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when
F17
came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once again,
several of them don't appear to have even been looked over *at all* by
the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother sometimes...
Tet
Yeah; I think the same thing too. However, there's one
(https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=754169) that I'm thinking
of trying to get fixed. The important question is, does it give the
right answer when you don't run it as root? If not, I might manage to
make the maintainer give it a higher priority.
4:31 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Ian Malone <ibmalone(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 August 2013 19:09, inode0 <inode0(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Heinz Diehl <htd(a)fritha.org> wrote:
>> On 02.08.2013, inode0 wrote:
>>
>>> Failure to have your expectations met leads to demotivation and the
>>> easiest way to fix that is to change your expectations.
>>
>> It's free software, and therefore I'm not expecting that people find the
>> time to fix my bug. In 99% of all cases, the bug is reported elsewhere
>> and I fix it, recompile or work around it.
>>
>> The thing is: I take my time to elaborate and report the bug (and
>> occasionally even have the solution), but nobody answers - ever.
>> Would be enough with e.g. an automatically generated message
>> when one of the developers reads my bugreport, just to know that it
>> was worth the effort. Instead you are telling me that's me who has to
>> change.
>
> I understand. And another volunteer helps out by rewriting a poorly
> written page on the wiki. Nobody replies to him either. Another person
> sends out 100 home burned DVDs of Fedora at his own expense to people
> requesting help and none of them say thank you.
>
> It is your decision that what you are doing is or isn't worthwhile
> based on the reaction or non-reaction of someone else. I see much
> value in the contributions you are making as well as in the
> contributions other people make regardless of feedback. I'm not saying
> you have to change but I do think you'll be less annoyed by lack of
> feedback if you (a) don't expect it and (b) know what you are doing is
> valuable without feedback.
>
When you've gone through a couple of cycles of reporting a bug, not
having it replied to at all and the thing is not fixed in a new
release, to the point where ultimately it becomes obsolete because
you've given up on trying, you do start to wonder whether it's putting
any effort into filing the thing in the first place. Actually
compiling a useful bug report rather than a "this doesn't work" takes
time, why would you do that if you didn't think anyone would even look
at it? If I adjust my expectations to believe it's pointless then I
wont waste my time doing it.
Not every bug will be fixed. If that isn't your expectation then you
really should adjust your expectations. If some number of cases of
what you perceive to be wasted effort outweighs those cases where bugs
are fixed and millions of people benefit because of you then go ahead
and give up. I think the single case here or there where you are the
reason millions of people benefit outweighs all the annoying cases
where your report might appear to be ignored though.
John
4:58 p.m.
On 08/02/2013 02:31 PM, inode0 wrote:
Not every bug will be fixed. If that isn't your expectation then
you
really should adjust your expectations. If some number of cases of
what you perceive to be wasted effort outweighs those cases where bugs
are fixed and millions of people benefit because of you then go ahead
and give up. I think the single case here or there where you are the
reason millions of people benefit outweighs all the annoying cases
where your report might appear to be ignored though.
I would say that maybe 30% of the bugs I report get fixed, at most. Of
those that don't, about 60% get no comments by anybody except that
they're being closed at EOL.
3:51 p.m.
On 2 August 2013 19:09, inode0 <inode0(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Heinz Diehl <htd(a)fritha.org>
wrote:
> On 02.08.2013, inode0 wrote:
>
>> Failure to have your expectations met leads to demotivation and the
>> easiest way to fix that is to change your expectations.
>
> It's free software, and therefore I'm not expecting that people find the
> time to fix my bug. In 99% of all cases, the bug is reported elsewhere
> and I fix it, recompile or work around it.
>
> The thing is: I take my time to elaborate and report the bug (and
> occasionally even have the solution), but nobody answers - ever.
> Would be enough with e.g. an automatically generated message
> when one of the developers reads my bugreport, just to know that it
> was worth the effort. Instead you are telling me that's me who has to
> change.
I understand. And another volunteer helps out by rewriting a poorly
written page on the wiki. Nobody replies to him either. Another person
sends out 100 home burned DVDs of Fedora at his own expense to people
requesting help and none of them say thank you.
It is your decision that what you are doing is or isn't worthwhile
based on the reaction or non-reaction of someone else. I see much
value in the contributions you are making as well as in the
contributions other people make regardless of feedback. I'm not saying
you have to change but I do think you'll be less annoyed by lack of
feedback if you (a) don't expect it and (b) know what you are doing is
valuable without feedback.
When you've gone through a couple of cycles of reporting a bug, not
having it replied to at all and the thing is not fixed in a new
release, to the point where ultimately it becomes obsolete because
you've given up on trying, you do start to wonder whether it's putting
any effort into filing the thing in the first place. Actually
compiling a useful bug report rather than a "this doesn't work" takes
time, why would you do that if you didn't think anyone would even look
at it? If I adjust my expectations to believe it's pointless then I
wont waste my time doing it.
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
1:09 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Heinz Diehl <htd(a)fritha.org> wrote:
On 02.08.2013, inode0 wrote:
> Failure to have your expectations met leads to demotivation and the
> easiest way to fix that is to change your expectations.
It's free software, and therefore I'm not expecting that people find the
time to fix my bug. In 99% of all cases, the bug is reported elsewhere
and I fix it, recompile or work around it.
The thing is: I take my time to elaborate and report the bug (and
occasionally even have the solution), but nobody answers - ever.
Would be enough with e.g. an automatically generated message
when one of the developers reads my bugreport, just to know that it
was worth the effort. Instead you are telling me that's me who has to
change.
I understand. And another volunteer helps out by rewriting a poorly
written page on the wiki. Nobody replies to him either. Another person
sends out 100 home burned DVDs of Fedora at his own expense to people
requesting help and none of them say thank you.
It is your decision that what you are doing is or isn't worthwhile
based on the reaction or non-reaction of someone else. I see much
value in the contributions you are making as well as in the
contributions other people make regardless of feedback. I'm not saying
you have to change but I do think you'll be less annoyed by lack of
feedback if you (a) don't expect it and (b) know what you are doing is
valuable without feedback.
John
12:17 p.m.
On 02.08.2013, inode0 wrote:
Failure to have your expectations met leads to demotivation and the
easiest way to fix that is to change your expectations.
It's free software, and therefore I'm not expecting that people find the
time to fix my bug. In 99% of all cases, the bug is reported elsewhere
and I fix it, recompile or work around it.
The thing is: I take my time to elaborate and report the bug (and
occasionally even have the solution), but nobody answers - ever.
Would be enough with e.g. an automatically generated message
when one of the developers reads my bugreport, just to know that it
was worth the effort. Instead you are telling me that's me who has to
change.
So what's in it for me? Serving the community and the developement of
free software? Fedora? How should I know, when there's not a single
reaction? Because you are telling me that all reports are read, but
in most cases there is not the time to even have a short (and maybe automatic)
answer?
It's just right there my motivation drops.
9:43 a.m.
Tim:
> But it's kind of hard to believe that all the bugs a person
might have
> reported can't be fixed within the same release. As the original
> responder suggested, why bother making reports...
Tom Horsley:
Because sometimes they become a source of great amusement like
this one:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=451562
I seem to remember a similar situation, when I installed Fedora 17. It
wanted to run at a rate faster than my monitor could handle. I had to
modify GRUB, so it was text-only, else the screen shut-off pre-boot.
And I had to modify GDM, for the same reason.
Since my personal login let me set a screen resolution that worked
(after using another monitor, to see what I wanted to do), I worked out
that I could set GDM's with the same configuration file. Copying, if I
remember the file name and path correctly, my ~/.config/monitors.xml
file to GDM's home space (older releases used ~/.gnome2/monitors.xml).
Or, as I did on another computer, modifying the file to have useful
parameters, from a text-only console.
I've never gone in for this bodging the screen dimensions or DPI to
something false, though. You get poor resolution, and strange sizing
issues. Not to mention an inability to set actual real-world
measurements of things on-screen, and system coders aren't motivated to
make it easy for users to properly configure their displays, when some
hack that *appears* to work is used. I set up the screen details
properly, and pick appropriately sized fonts.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
9:19 a.m.
On 2 August 2013 14:55, inode0 <inode0(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Heinz Diehl <htd(a)fritha.org>
wrote:
> On 02.08.2013, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
>
>> While one could consider not answering a bugreport to be a display of
>> bad manners
>
> It first and foremost is demotivating, which in turn results in fewer
> bug reports, which in turn results in worse software..
So why is it demotivating to some and not to others? Rather than try
to fix every bug every release and politely respond to every bug
report because none of that is ever going to happen we can think about
our expectations and the value of our reports and rather than become
demotivated take satisfaction from knowing we made a valuable
contribution regardless of whether we know anything about what
happened to it after we reported it or not.
Failure to have your expectations met leads to demotivation and the
easiest way to fix that is to change your expectations.
The Church of Bugzilla?
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
8:55 a.m.
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Heinz Diehl <htd(a)fritha.org> wrote:
On 02.08.2013, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> While one could consider not answering a bugreport to be a display of
> bad manners
It first and foremost is demotivating, which in turn results in fewer
bug reports, which in turn results in worse software..
So why is it demotivating to some and not to others? Rather than try
to fix every bug every release and politely respond to every bug
report because none of that is ever going to happen we can think about
our expectations and the value of our reports and rather than become
demotivated take satisfaction from knowing we made a valuable
contribution regardless of whether we know anything about what
happened to it after we reported it or not.
Failure to have your expectations met leads to demotivation and the
easiest way to fix that is to change your expectations.
John
8:40 a.m.
On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 15:00:16 +0200 Heinz Diehl <htd(a)fritha.org> wrote:
On 02.08.2013, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> While one could consider not answering a bugreport to be a display of
> bad manners
It first and foremost is demotivating, which in turn results in fewer
bug reports, which in turn results in worse software..
To wit, there has been a bug report that ssh does not get started as
part of lxsession. I even identified the offending component and
religiously filed till F18. For F19, I decided to get out of LXDE
altogether and moved out of DE's.
Ranjan
____________________________________________________________
FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family!
Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!
5:18 a.m.
On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 16:16:21 +0930
Tim wrote:
But it's kind of hard to believe that all the bugs a person might
have
reported can't be fixed within the same release. As the original
responder suggested, why bother making reports...
Because sometimes they become a source of great amusement like
this one:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=451562
1:46 a.m.
Allegedly, on or about 01 August 2013, Marko Vojinovic sent:
Speaking hypothetically (and playing the devil's advocate a bit),
the
fact that the bugreports were not responded to doesn't mean that they
were not looked at or maybe reported upstream. It can happen that the
upstream devs already knew about the bug and had a fix in a later
version, which would come with the next version of Fedora. Nobody
bothered to answer since it didn't require any further input from the
OP.
There's a fixed in with next release (or words to that effect) response
code for bugzilla reports. If the bug is fixed with the version for the
next release, then that response should be given.
But it's kind of hard to believe that all the bugs a person might have
reported can't be fixed within the same release. As the original
responder suggested, why bother making reports...
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.9.10-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Jul 14 01:31:27 UTC 2013 x86_64
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
4:07 p.m.
On 8/1/2013 4:31 PM, Tethys wrote:
So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when
F17
came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once again,
several of them don't appear to have even been looked over *at all* by
the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother sometimes...
Tet
Are they still active 'in' Fedora 18 or fedora 19? If yes then reenter them.
If not? Maybe you should update your version to solve your problem?
--
David
6:18 p.m.
On 08/02/13 06:54, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 08/01/2013 03:38 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Yep.... I just got 3 closures of bugs reported in F17 that were looked at and
subsequently fixed in F18 but not back ported. I know there will be several other when
F18 reaches EOL since the next version of LibreOffice fixed some and F18 will remain at
3.X of LO.
>
> I've not felt ignored.
That I don't mind, because at least they got fixed. It's when you report a bug
and nothing is done until it's time to close it as WONTFIX that you wonder if anybody
even looked at it.
I never have wonder if somebody look at it. I'm pretty sure they have and have
prioritized their workload. I'd rather they not answer with a rubber stamp
"I'll look at it". It reminds me of my first company when, after filing a
PSR, you'd get response which said "Thanks for the input".
--
Getting tired of non-Fedora discussions and self-serving posts
6:26 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:07 PM, David <dgboles(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Are they still active 'in' Fedora 18 or fedora 19? If yes
then reenter them.
Please don't create new bugs just because old ones were closed; it
makes things messier. If you open a new one every time a Fedora
release goes EOL it's much harder to tell what bugs are longstanding
or not, and information provided in the old bug might be lost, or
harder to find since you have to click through to the old bug to find
it. Keeping things in one place makes it easier on everyone.
Instead, just add a comment indicating you can still reproduce it with
a newer Fedora release, change the "Version" field to the appropriate
Fedora version, and reopen it.
If you cannot reopen the bug because you didn't report it, please
still add a comment as described above that indicates the Fedora
release you tried so we can set that field properly, and then reply to
this thread with a link and I or someone else with the necessary
privileges will gladly reopen it for you.
Thanks!
-T.C.
6:16 p.m.
On 08/01/2013 04:02 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Atleast for me, I just noticed a few bug reports being closed that
I
had taken a look at earlier, decided that I will focus on other bugs
since it was a low priority issue and the danger of introducing new
problems were higher. Should I have responded earlier and conveyed that
decision? Yes but some bugs do slip off your radar when you are dealing
with dozens of components. Don't be discouraged. Just reopen against
the new release if it is still a problem.
Understood. You only have so much time and you have to pick and choose
which ones get your attention. And, in more than one case, I've
re-opened a bug against a new version. In fact, I've done that more
than once with alacarte because either the fix hasn't worked, or it's
just replaced one crash with another. Weird.
6:02 p.m.
Hi
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 08/01/2013 03:38 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Yep.... I just got 3 closures of bugs reported in F17 that were looked
> at and subsequently fixed in F18 but not back ported. I know there will be
> several other when F18 reaches EOL since the next version of LibreOffice
> fixed some and F18 will remain at 3.X of LO.
>
> I've not felt ignored.
>
That I don't mind, because at least they got fixed. It's when you report
a bug and nothing is done until it's time to close it as WONTFIX that you
wonder if anybody even looked at it.
Atleast for me, I just noticed a few bug reports being closed that I had
taken a look at earlier, decided that I will focus on other bugs since it
was a low priority issue and the danger of introducing new problems were
higher. Should I have responded earlier and conveyed that decision? Yes
but some bugs do slip off your radar when you are dealing with dozens of
components. Don't be discouraged. Just reopen against the new release if
it is still a problem.
Rahul
5:54 p.m.
On 08/01/2013 03:38 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
Yep.... I just got 3 closures of bugs reported in F17 that were
looked at and subsequently fixed in F18 but not back ported. I know there will be several
other when F18 reaches EOL since the next version of LibreOffice fixed some and F18 will
remain at 3.X of LO.
I've not felt ignored.
That I don't mind, because at least they got fixed. It's when you
report a bug and nothing is done until it's time to close it as WONTFIX
that you wonder if anybody even looked at it.
5:40 p.m.
On 08/01/2013 03:25 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
While one could consider not answering a bugreport to be a display
of
bad manners, David is right that you should check if the bug is
resolved in the later versions of Fedora before getting angry about
being ignored.
Actually, I've had a few that got fixed in a later version of Fedora. I
know because every single one of them was closed, giving the name of the
fixed package and what version it was for. None of them were simply
left hanging.
And, I do know that just because there's no response doesn't mean that
nobody's looked at it. It just means that whoever did look didn't feel
the need to respond, even to say, "I'll take a look at that."
5:25 p.m.
On Thu, 01 Aug 2013 14:25:30 -0700
Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us> wrote:
On 08/01/2013 02:07 PM, David wrote:
> On 8/1/2013 4:31 PM, Tethys wrote:
>> So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when
>> F17 came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once
>> again, several of them don't appear to have even been looked over
>> *at all* by the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother
>> sometimes...
>
> Are they still active 'in' Fedora 18 or fedora 19? If yes then
> reenter them.
>
> If not? Maybe you should update your version to solve your problem?
I think you missed his (and my) point. What good is it to open a bug
report early in a version's life if the only time you get a response
is when it's closed at EOL for that version?
Speaking hypothetically (and playing the devil's advocate a bit), the
fact that the bugreports were not responded to doesn't mean that they
were not looked at or maybe reported upstream. It can happen that the
upstream devs already knew about the bug and had a fix in a later
version, which would come with the next version of Fedora. Nobody
bothered to answer since it didn't require any further input from the
OP.
While one could consider not answering a bugreport to be a display of
bad manners, David is right that you should check if the bug is
resolved in the later versions of Fedora before getting angry about
being ignored.
HTH, :-)
Marko
5:14 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Tethys <tethys(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when
F17
came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once again,
several of them don't appear to have even been looked over *at all* by
the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother sometimes...
I see some typos in a wiki page. I stop what I'm doing for a few
minutes, login to the wiki, fix the page, log out and go back to what
I was doing. Did anyone ever see the change I made? I don't know. Why
did I do it? Because I want to make our little corner of the world
better.
Lots of ways we contribute to Fedora and other projects seem to go
unnoticed. We aren't thanked, often we our efforts aren't acknowledged
in any way. In your case we hope that perhaps it was transfered
without comment upstream where it was fixed later. Why do we continue
contributing? Maybe we get some personal satisfaction from trying to
help. Maybe we just care about making things better and this is what
we can do today.
Don't be discouraged. Every bug reported is a bug that can get fixed.
You made that possible.
And we as a project really do appreciate your bug reports and your
wiki edits and your helping other people on our mailing lists.
John
4:25 p.m.
On 08/01/2013 02:07 PM, David wrote:
On 8/1/2013 4:31 PM, Tethys wrote:
> So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when F17
> came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once again,
> several of them don't appear to have even been looked over *at all* by
> the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother sometimes...
>
> Tet
>
Are they still active 'in' Fedora 18 or fedora 19? If yes then reenter them.
If not? Maybe you should update your version to solve your problem?
I think you missed his (and my) point. What good is it to open a bug
report early in a version's life if the only time you get a response is
when it's closed at EOL for that version?
3:38 p.m.
Am 01.08.2013 22:31, schrieb Tethys:
So here I am, sat with an inbox full of bugs that I reported when
F17
came out and now they're being closed as F17 is EOL. Once again,
several of them don't appear to have even been looked over *at all* by
the package maintainer. I wonder why I bother sometimes...
you are not alone.........
3925
days inactive
3926
days old
25 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
David -
Ed Greshko -
Heinz Diehl -
Ian Malone -
inode0 -
Joe Zeff -
Marko Vojinovic -
Rahul Sundaram -
Ranjan Maitra -
Reindl Harald -
T.C. Hollingsworth -
Tethys -
Tim -
Tom Horsley