10:14 a.m.
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand. Good Bye.
Karl
--
Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7
10:19 a.m.
Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com]
On Behalf Of Karl Larsen
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:15 AM
To: For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Good bye
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I signed
up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart people.
Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I just talked
to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never understand.
Good Bye.
Karl
--
Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7
--
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fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
10:24 a.m.
2008/1/30, Ferguson, Michael <ferguson(a)brvmlaw.com>:
Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:
fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com]
On Behalf Of Karl Larsen
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:15 AM
To: For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Good bye
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed
up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart people.
Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I just
talked
to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand.
Good Bye.
Karl
--
Karl F. Larsen, AKA K5DI
Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
PGP 4208 4D6E 595F 22B9 FF1C ECB6 4A3C 2C54 FE23 53A7
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Sorry Michael, to late.
--
Alessandro Brezzi
10:34 a.m.
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 10:19:08 am Ferguson, Michael wrote:
Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
Thanks
To the OP: Sincerely I hope that *you* have improved your learn methodology
and your behavior.
In the meantime:
Hasta la Vista.
(sry Ubuntu list)
best regards
Teo Fonrouge
12:40 p.m.
On Jan 30, 2008 10:34 AM, Teo Fonrouge <fedora-list(a)windtelsoft.com> wrote:
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 10:19:08 am Ferguson, Michael wrote:
> Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
> Thanks
>
>
To the OP: Sincerely I hope that *you* have improved your learn methodology
and your behavior.
In the meantime:
Hasta la Vista.
(sry Ubuntu list)
THIS is why i love Ubuntu so much. Ubuntu is to Fedora what Super
massive plans are to the inner solar system.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
1:03 p.m.
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 12:40:59 pm Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Jan 30, 2008 10:34 AM, Teo Fonrouge
<fedora-list(a)windtelsoft.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 January 2008 10:19:08 am Ferguson, Michael wrote:
> > Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
> > Thanks
>
> To the OP: Sincerely I hope that *you* have improved your learn
> methodology and your behavior.
>
> In the meantime:
>
> Hasta la Vista.
> (sry Ubuntu list)
THIS is why i love Ubuntu so much. Ubuntu is to Fedora what Super
massive plans are to the inner solar system.
You are talking here about presence of intelligent life ? :)
best regards
Teo Fonrouge
7:44 a.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Jan 30, 2008 10:34 AM, Teo Fonrouge
<fedora-list(a)windtelsoft.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 January 2008 10:19:08 am Ferguson, Michael wrote:
>> Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>
> To the OP: Sincerely I hope that *you* have improved your learn methodology
> and your behavior.
>
> In the meantime:
>
> Hasta la Vista.
> (sry Ubuntu list)
THIS is why i love Ubuntu so much. Ubuntu is to Fedora what Super
massive plans are to the inner solar system.
I like Ubuntu because they have the balls to put naked people in their
distro.
9:45 a.m.
I like Ubuntu because they have the balls to put
naked people in their
distro.
--
It does not show much :(, it is there just to get
attention. This is due to the humanity theme.
http://proyectos.pixelamigo.com/software/Ubuntu/CoolUbuntuWallpapers/ubun...
is an example, more can be found
http://proyectos.pixelamigo.com/software/Ubuntu/CoolUbuntuWallpapers/
You can download them and put them in as your
background. You do not need to have Ubuntu to have
their wallpapers on your desktop. I'm sure you can
put them into Debian, Slackware, CentOS, RHEL,
Knoppix, PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, whichever one you
choose. A background should not have an adverse
effect on how a distro works.
The balls to do things is one thing, the politics
behind the distros controls what they put in or out.
The putting in of the picture made their distro rise
to the top of Distrowatch unseating Mandrake/Mandriva.
It is interesting that a background can have a
tremendous effect on people choosing a linux distro.
If the background showed a little more, then it could
unseat Windows from the 90% of the worlds computers.
It should get more to the Linux Side :)
Regards,
Antonio
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
10:16 a.m.
Antonio Olivares <olivares14031(a)yahoo.com> wrote: It is interesting that a
background can have a
tremendous effect on people choosing a linux distro.
I'd say it speaks volumes towards the bandwidth level of the intended audience.
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
5 p.m.
Antonio Olivares wrote:
The putting in of the picture made their distro rise
to the top of Distrowatch unseating Mandrake/Mandriva.
It is interesting that a background can have a
tremendous effect on people choosing a linux distro.
Some people will believe anything. I was testing and my wife using
Ubuntu Warty when it first topped distrowatch, and it didn't need those
pictures.
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
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-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
You cannot reply off-list:-)
5:15 p.m.
--- John Summerfield <debian(a)herakles.homelinux.org>
wrote:
Antonio Olivares wrote:
>
>
> The putting in of the picture made their distro
rise
> to the top of Distrowatch unseating
Mandrake/Mandriva.
> It is interesting that a background can have a
> tremendous effect on people choosing a linux
distro.
Some people will believe anything. I was testing and
my wife using
Ubuntu Warty when it first topped distrowatch, and
it didn't need those
pictures.
Not that I believe it, what I meant to say is that it
got attention :), comments right and left from people
everywhere. It (the background) did come out in
Distrowatch Weekly and it got a bunch of hits. It
rose to the top dethroning Mandrake/Mandriva.
It might have not needed the pictures, but it
definitely was getting attention :)
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu
Z1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu
-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
You cannot reply off-list:-)
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Cheers,
Antonio
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
8:11 p.m.
On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 07:45 -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
The balls to do things is one thing, the politics
behind the distros controls what they put in or out.
While that may increase the number of young males getting the distro, it
can also have adverse effects. There's plenty of places where that sort
of thing is quite taboo (whether societal, business policy, or any other
reason), no matter how much the interesting bits may get obscured.
Causing it to get shunned, or get people in trouble.
Doing that sort of thing's, very much, a double-edged sword. There are
other ways to generate interest in something.
And I'm sure ;-) that there's plenty of sources that you can get files
like that to add to your computer, no matter what OS you use.
--
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
7:59 a.m.
Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 07:45 -0800, Antonio Olivares wrote:
> The balls to do things is one thing, the politics
> behind the distros controls what they put in or out.
While that may increase the number of young males getting the distro, it
can also have adverse effects. There's plenty of places where that sort
of thing is quite taboo (whether societal, business policy, or any other
reason), no matter how much the interesting bits may get obscured.
Causing it to get shunned, or get people in trouble.
Doing that sort of thing's, very much, a double-edged sword. There are
other ways to generate interest in something.
There was quite a heated debate about the composition of the original
grouping of people, which was mixed (race and gender) and naked.
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
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-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
You cannot reply off-list:-)
3:59 a.m.
On Sun, 2008-02-03 at 22:59 +0900, John Summerfield wrote:
There was quite a heated debate about the composition of the original
grouping of people, which was mixed (race and gender) and naked.
Hmm, hadn't seen that, so I went looking just for curiosity's sake. I
found one that is kind of amusing, in the "trying to work out what
they're thinking" manner. It's just ripe for some thought bubbles:
http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/4.10RC-images/screenshot-gnomesplash.png
--
[tim@bigblack ~]$ uname -ipr
2.6.23.12-52.fc7 i686 i386
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
2:19 a.m.
On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 05:44 -0800, Michael A. Peters wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Jan 30, 2008 10:34 AM, Teo Fonrouge <fedora-list(a)windtelsoft.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday 30 January 2008 10:19:08 am Ferguson, Michael wrote:
>>> Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> To the OP: Sincerely I hope that *you* have improved your learn methodology
>> and your behavior.
>>
>> In the meantime:
>>
>> Hasta la Vista.
>> (sry Ubuntu list)
>
>
> THIS is why i love Ubuntu so much. Ubuntu is to Fedora what Super
> massive plans are to the inner solar system.
>
I like Ubuntu because they have the balls to put naked people in their
distro.
They do?? I guess I'm gonna have to check out partitioning my drive!
<grins> Ri
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
8:43 a.m.
Yeah, Karl's gone but his legacy remains poignant. hahahah
He has strong pull, quite so. Quite so.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:fedora-list-bounces@redhat.com]
On Behalf Of Eric
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:37 AM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: RE: Good bye
At 11:19 AM 1/30/2008, Ferguson, Michael wrote:
> Ok everybody. Please DO NOT reply to Karl. Please DO NOT..
Yeah, good luck with that... :-\
--
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To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
9:06 a.m.
Everyone,
In all fairness to Karl (and others like him), we need to be fair.
(1) This is a list for beginners and users. This is not a list for
developers and geeks; although they are extremely welcome to stay and
answer a few questions now and then.
(2) Karl is probably old enough to be many peoples grandfather on this
list. (I'm making a big assumption on this; since Karl has already
revealed his age) So show a bit of respect.
(3) The simple FACT Karl can stir up so much of a response for his
questions only means we may be missing something. (Namely not everyone
is a Linux guru)
(4) In all the responses and the like, everyone has tried helping him
with his problems with the distro. The fact everyone got annoyed by his
questions and responses and off-topic quotes and the like is only adding
fuel to the already burning fire.
Some things to consider:
(a) When someone asks a question, ask yourself... what are they asking
for? Help, documentation, instructions, a gentile ear to listen.
(b) Before you blindly respond, ask "Do I need more information to
intelligently answer the question?", "Can I truly help, or may I just be
adding a distraction in my response confusing others?", "Is it something
I'm familiar with? Answering a question when you don't have all your
facts will only frustrate a simple user."
(c) Try to be KIND! CONSIDERATE!, and POLITE! Adding rude comments,
gestures, or other dis-respectable responses discredits any GOOD answers
you may have.
Lastly, always remember. Like everything else you can alway ignore the
question if you don't have anything constructive to add.
Thanks,
James
--
Scanned by ClamAV - http://www.clamav.net
9:38 a.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 10:06 -0500, James Kosin wrote:
(2) Karl is probably old enough to be many peoples grandfather on
this list. (I'm making a big assumption on this; since Karl has
already revealed his age) So show a bit of respect.
This isn't a "Karl issue". You get respected for acting in a way that
generates respect. It is not something gifted upon you simply due to
age. Acting in a converse manner, which he did, earned himself his
disrespect.
Courtesy is another matter. You try to be courteous to people, as part
of your own good conduct, right from the start. But we're not obligated
to continue to do so towards someone who's being antagonistic. Though,
being courteous towards someone whilst your berating them for being a
prick, can be advantageous ... and amusing for the audience.
Over the years I've encountered many people who've "demanded" respect,
none of which deserved it, so they didn't get it. Those who deserved
respect, got it because their conduct impressed the people around them.
--
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
11:09 a.m.
On Thursday January 31 2008 10:06:04 am James Kosin wrote:
Some things to consider:
(a) When someone asks a question, ask yourself... what are
they asking for? Help, documentation, instructions, a gentile
ear to listen. (b) Before you blindly respond, ask "Do I
need more information to intelligently answer the question?",
"Can I truly help, or may I just be adding a distraction in my
response confusing others?", "Is it something I'm familiar
with? Answering a question when you don't have all your facts
will only frustrate a simple user."
(c) Try to be KIND! CONSIDERATE!, and POLITE! Adding rude
comments, gestures, or other dis-respectable responses
discredits any GOOD answers you may have.
I agree. There will be a flurry of self-justifiying comments on
your post, mostly from those who think that being boorish is a
right - the you-gotta-earn-my-respect crowd - it's all so
predictable; absolute kindness, consideration, and politeness in
the face of whatever you encounter is not a trait you'll find in
great abundance here, at least amongst some.
Make fun of boors...while your appeal may reach some, humor also
has its place.
--
Claude Jones
Brunswick, MD, USA
12:03 p.m.
On 31/01/2008, James Kosin <jkosin(a)beta.intcomgrp.com> wrote:
Everyone,
In all fairness to Karl (and others like him), we need to be fair.
The following is all good advice, but there are a couple of
points.
(1) This is a list for beginners and users. This is not a list
for
developers and geeks; although they are extremely welcome to stay and
answer a few questions now and then.
'Developers and geeks' are users too, and some of the best
sources of information on this list. I do also believe some of
the people who are most critical of Fedora are also some of
the people who know best what they're talking about and are
very valuable members.
(2) Karl is probably old enough to be many peoples grandfather on
this
list. (I'm making a big assumption on this; since Karl has already
revealed his age) So show a bit of respect.
Age shouldn't really come into it, I would rather say everyone is
due basic civility (which you cover later).
Some things to consider:
(b) Before you blindly respond, ask "Do I need more
information to
intelligently answer the question?", "Can I truly help, or may I just be
adding a distraction in my response confusing others?", "Is it something
I'm familiar with? Answering a question when you don't have all your
facts will only frustrate a simple user."
This maybe expects a bit too much if you expect "normal
users" to answer other "normal users'" questions. If people
are answering to the best of their ability then, unless they're
experts, you will get conflicting advice. Asking for help on
a mailing list you must be able to sift the responses for value
and common information, because you can't make all the
respondents follow this rule.
(c) Try to be KIND! CONSIDERATE!, and POLITE! Adding rude
comments,
gestures, or other dis-respectable responses discredits any GOOD answers
you may have.
Lastly, always remember. Like everything else you can alway ignore the
question if you don't have anything constructive to add.
We can live and hope.
--
imalone
11:58 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 10:06 -0500, James Kosin wrote:
Everyone,
In all fairness to Karl (and others like him), we need to be fair.
(1) This is a list for beginners and users.
Good God! Who told you that? I would never in my wildest dreams
recommend Fedora to a beginner. Lordy no. <shudders> We've been over and
over a zillion times how Fedora is a beta test platform for RH. Beginner
space? I don't think so, IMHO. Surely not by design. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
10:22 a.m.
2008/1/30, Karl Larsen <k5di(a)zianet.com>:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand. Good Bye.
Karl
Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a long time
both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the superior
hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card or monitor in
Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put in a different HW
(different MoBo, different Processor, different Video Card etc)?
Good luck Karl
--
Alessandro Brezzi
12:58 p.m.
Alessandro Brezzi wrote:
Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a long
time both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the
superior hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card or
monitor in Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put in a
different HW (different MoBo, different Processor, different Video Card
etc)?
Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1 p.m.
Well Karl is on the Ubuntu list and he's up to his old games.
Strange that he's still asking about that camera that worked so
well with skype ...
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
2:55 p.m.
Hi Les,
2008/1/30, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com>:
Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
--
I say this because for a long period of time, after changing my employement,
I was without internet connection, so weekly I moved a couple of SATA-I disk
back to my home computer. At IPL time I have to rerun the XOrg config, but
this was an automatically invoked process.
I think Anaconda is making the difference here. In my personal experience,
no PCLinuxOS, nor Ubuntu or others works this way: I've tried both :-)
--
Alessandro Brezzi
4:13 p.m.
________________________________
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:55:40 +0100
From: alessandro.brezzi(a)gmail.com
To: fedora-list(a)redhat.com
Subject: Re: Good bye
Hi Les,
2008/1/30, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com>:
Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
--
I say this because for a long period of time, after changing my employement, I was
without internet connection, so weekly I moved a couple of SATA-I disk back to my home
computer. At IPL time I have to rerun the XOrg config, but this was an automatically
invoked process.
I think Anaconda is making the difference here. In my personal experience, no PCLinuxOS,
nor Ubuntu or others works this way: I've tried both :-)
--
Alessandro Brezzi
May be a little off subject for this particular thread, but wait till he tries to run
multiple x logins on one machine in Ubuntu. I nearly gave up on linux because of that and
stuck solely to FreeBSD! Tv cards sent me back though...
_________________________________________________________________
Your Future Starts Here. Dream it? Then be it! Find it at www.seek.com.au
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau...
4:40 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Alessandro Brezzi wrote:
>
> Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a long
> time both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the
> superior hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card
> or monitor in Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put
> in a different HW (different MoBo, different Processor, different
> Video Card etc)?
Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
It isn't?
I've done it on RHL 7.x (and before) and Debian. I don't see why it
wouldn't work with the latest Fedora or with Ubuntu.
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
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-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
You cannot reply off-list:-)
4:43 p.m.
On Jan 30, 2008 2:40 PM, John Summerfield <debian(a)herakles.homelinux.org> wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
> Alessandro Brezzi wrote:
>>
>> Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a long
>> time both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the
>> superior hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card
>> or monitor in Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put
>> in a different HW (different MoBo, different Processor, different
>> Video Card etc)?
>
> Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
> contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
>
It isn't?
I've done it on RHL 7.x (and before) and Debian. I don't see why it
wouldn't work with the latest Fedora or with Ubuntu.
Not with SCSI you didn't.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
L. Friedman netllama(a)gmail.com
LlamaLand https://netllama.linux-sxs.org
5:02 p.m.
John Summerfield wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
> Alessandro Brezzi wrote:
>>
>> Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a
>> long time both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the
>> superior hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card
>> or monitor in Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put
>> in a different HW (different MoBo, different Processor, different
>> Video Card etc)?
>
> Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
> contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
>
It isn't?
I've done it on RHL 7.x (and before) and Debian. I don't see why it
wouldn't work with the latest Fedora or with Ubuntu.
The disk driver module has to be included in your initrd and if you have
a different controller you'll need a different module before you can
access the disk where it is stored. If you know as much as anaconda
does about hardware you can build a new initrd either before moving or
with a rescue dvd boot. I've used a brute-force approach on Centos
where I do a minimal install on the new hardware, then toss everything
except the contents of /boot, either copying the new /boot partition to
my old disk or copying everything else from the old system to the rest
of the new drive. I'd expect that to also work with fedora to get to a
point where you can fix the rest of the drivers.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:42 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a
lot of
contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
Some good information was passed on this list where someone used the
install disc to have it setup devices again. I recently used that
suggestion when I had a computer go dead on me. When the disks were
moved to an industrial computer things worked properly after video,
network and other minor adjustments. Before running the installer the
disks would not boot.
Probably not a sure fire method to moving disks to totally foreign
computer but a good last ditch effort for some purposes. Mainly, my
setup was too complex to do a fresh install.
--
It's the opinion of some that crops could be grown on the moon. Which
raises the fear that it may not be long before we're paying somebody not to.
-- Franklin P. Jones
2:23 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Alessandro Brezzi wrote:
>
> Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a long
> time both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the
> superior hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card
> or monitor in Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put
> in a different HW (different MoBo, different Processor, different
> Video Card etc)?
Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
Never been a problem for me - I just have to remember to re-enable kudzu
before I do it (I turn off kudzu post install)
11:14 a.m.
Michael A. Peters wrote:
>>
>> Good bye Karl, this is your personal opinion. After testing for a
>> long time both Ubuntu and Fedora I personally stay in Fedora for the
>> superior hardware recognition. Have you tried to change a Video Card
>> or monitor in Ubuntu? Have you never extracted your Ubuntu HD and put
>> in a different HW (different MoBo, different Processor, different
>> Video Card etc)?
>
> Moving your disk isn't going to work in fedora either without a lot of
> contortions if your new disk controller needs a different driver.
>
Never been a problem for me - I just have to remember to re-enable kudzu
before I do it (I turn off kudzu post install)
IDE drives mostly (all?) use the same driver. Try moving a scsi drive
between different controler brands or even models.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:03 p.m.
On Saturday 02 February 2008, Les Mikesell wrote:
IDE drives mostly (all?) use the same driver. Try moving a scsi
drive
between different controler brands or even models.
Been there, done that. Last time was between an Adaptec 29160N and an Adaptec
29320LPE about a month ago. Yes, they use different kernel drivers. Yes, I
had to go through the 'boot from rescue CD, rebuild initrd' process with
which I'm pretty familiar. Not hard now, but it wasn't a cakewalk the first
time, that's for sure.
--
Lamar Owen
www.pari.edu
1:47 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 17:22 +0100, Alessandro Brezzi wrote:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing
with
it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some
very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working
with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are
Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is
bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the
name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will
never
understand. Good Bye.
Karl
Ubuntu, linux for human beings... with "Special Abilities"!
--
Renich Bon Ciric <renich(a)woralelandia.com>
Woralelandia
11:31 a.m.
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 11:14:36 Karl Larsen wrote:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand. Good Bye.
IMHO Ubuntu is the distro that deserves Karl and the distro
that Karl needs.
All of us on this list have wasted too much time and effort on him and his
issues.
12:03 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 12:31 -0500, Terry Polzin wrote:
On Wednesday 30 January 2008 11:14:36 Karl Larsen wrote:
> I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
> signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
> people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
> just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
>
> These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
> We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
> like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
> game.
>
> Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
> understand. Good Bye.
IMHO Ubuntu is the distro that deserves Karl and the distro that Karl needs.
All of us on this list have wasted too much time and effort on him and his
issues.
Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off the Ubuntu crowd...?
I know quite a few Ubuntu guys. A couple are friends and co-workers.
Most are just pro-Ubuntu as opposed to anti-Fedora. Just like most
people here are pro-Fedora as opposed to Anti-Ubuntu. I'd say it was
more just a matter of time...
Cheers,
Chris
--
====================================================
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is.
--Yogi Berra
12:21 p.m.
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
... snip ...
Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off the Ubuntu
crowd...?
I know quite a few Ubuntu guys. A couple are friends and co-workers.
Most are just pro-Ubuntu as opposed to anti-Fedora. Just like most
people here are pro-Fedora as opposed to Anti-Ubuntu. I'd say it was
more just a matter of time...
i was going to take the high road but ... oh, what the hell. from
months of observation, it would appear that karl's main gripe against
fedora is that it didn't work for him for *just those things that he
was working on.* ergo, karl concluded that it was a bad distro.
apparently, now karl had discovered that ubuntu does *precisely those
things* very well indeed, so karl concludes that ubuntu is a better
distro and karl is happy. for now.
but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
in fedora?
that's my prediction. would anyone like a piece of that action? i'll
give you odds.
rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
Home page: http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook: http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================
12:26 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
Robert P. J. Day wrote:
but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that
ubuntu
is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
in fedora?
Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing
that Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
--
W | It's not a bug - it's an undocumented feature.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley M. Kirchner <mailto:ashley@pcraft.com> . 303.442.6410 x130
IT Director / SysAdmin / Websmith . 800.441.3873 x130
Photo Craft Imaging . 3550 Arapahoe Ave. #6
http://www.pcraft.com ..... . . . Boulder, CO 80303, U.S.A.
12:34 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
> in fedora?
>
Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing that
Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
Windows?
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
12:39 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
Neil Cherry wrote:
Windows?
That's not a distro, it's a state of
mind.
--
W | It's not a bug - it's an undocumented feature.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley M. Kirchner <mailto:ashley@pcraft.com> . 303.442.6410 x130
IT Director / SysAdmin / Websmith . 800.441.3873 x130
Photo Craft Imaging . 3550 Arapahoe Ave. #6
http://www.pcraft.com ..... . . . Boulder, CO 80303, U.S.A.
12:47 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
Neil Cherry wrote:
>> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something
that ubuntu
>> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
>> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
>> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
>> in fedora?
>>
> Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing
> that Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
>
Windows?
After he mentioned not worrying about money, I wondered why he wasn't
using a Mac in the first place...
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:44 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
> in fedora?
>
Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing that
Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
mephis.
"Desktop on Steroids."
maybe the slogan will put him off.
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu Z1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu
-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
You cannot reply off-list:-)
2:29 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
> in fedora?
>
Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing that
Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
Caldera.
He is going to use his millions to buy out SCO ...
;)
2:33 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:29:31 -0800
"Michael A. Peters" <mpeters(a)mac.com> wrote:
Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
> Robert P. J. Day wrote:
>> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that
>> ubuntu is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before
>> karl is complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and
>> that it's way better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do
>> it like it's done in fedora?
>>
> Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing
> that Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
>
Caldera.
He is going to use his millions to buy out SCO ...
;)
Ruh Roh, the jig is up! Thia certainly has the essence of insider
trading!
--
Best regards,
Chris
Luke Skywalker:
Your overconfidence is your weakness.
Emperor Palpatine:
Your faith in your friends is yours.
12:14 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 02:33 -0600, Chris wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:29:31 -0800
"Michael A. Peters" <mpeters(a)mac.com> wrote:
> Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
> > Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> >> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that
> >> ubuntu is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before
> >> karl is complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and
> >> that it's way better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do
> >> it like it's done in fedora?
> >>
> > Anyone wanna wager on which distro he'll move to after realizing
> > that Ubuntu, like Fedora, also has its own little quirks?
> >
>
> Caldera.
> He is going to use his millions to buy out SCO ...
>
> ;)
>
Ruh Roh, the jig is up! Thia certainly has the essence of insider
trading!
Oh God! I LOVED Caldera! Helluva distro in it's day. It cost three times
what the RH offering went for, so it was a Republican type of list. I
should say Reagan Republican Era type of list. :) Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
12:29 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 13:21 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
... snip ...
> Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off the Ubuntu
> crowd...?
>
> I know quite a few Ubuntu guys. A couple are friends and co-workers.
> Most are just pro-Ubuntu as opposed to anti-Fedora. Just like most
> people here are pro-Fedora as opposed to Anti-Ubuntu. I'd say it was
> more just a matter of time...
i was going to take the high road but ... oh, what the hell. from
months of observation, it would appear that karl's main gripe against
fedora is that it didn't work for him for *just those things that he
was working on.* ergo, karl concluded that it was a bad distro.
apparently, now karl had discovered that ubuntu does *precisely those
things* very well indeed, so karl concludes that ubuntu is a better
distro and karl is happy. for now.
but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
in fedora?
that's my prediction. would anyone like a piece of that action? i'll
give you odds.
----
probably should have followed your initial instincts.
Our loss is Ubuntu's gain
;-)
Craig
5:58 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 11:29 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 13:21 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
>
> ... snip ...
>
> > Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off the Ubuntu
> > crowd...?
> >
> > I know quite a few Ubuntu guys. A couple are friends and co-workers.
> > Most are just pro-Ubuntu as opposed to anti-Fedora. Just like most
> > people here are pro-Fedora as opposed to Anti-Ubuntu. I'd say it was
> > more just a matter of time...
>
> i was going to take the high road but ... oh, what the hell. from
> months of observation, it would appear that karl's main gripe against
> fedora is that it didn't work for him for *just those things that he
> was working on.* ergo, karl concluded that it was a bad distro.
>
> apparently, now karl had discovered that ubuntu does *precisely those
> things* very well indeed, so karl concludes that ubuntu is a better
> distro and karl is happy. for now.
>
> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
> in fedora?
>
> that's my prediction. would anyone like a piece of that action? i'll
> give you odds.
----
probably should have followed your initial instincts.
Our loss is Ubuntu's gain
Shhhhh...! For Cris' sake, don't WARN the Ubuntu crowd. Just let Karl
get all nice, warm and cozy there. Let him move in, unpack his bags, and
settle into his bunker.
* LATE BREAKING NEWS *
In interviews with residents in the Ubuntu neighborhood, they said this
to the Brain Police, "Well, Karl was just this guy, ya know? He seemed
quiet enough and kept to himself ...at first. We had no idea. It was
just like a drive-by shooting, we were caught so unaware!"
It was a four-alarm flame-war that broke out in the quiet neighborhood,
that stunned residents and list-administrators alike, in this once
peaceful area. According to the Jack-Boots and the Brain Police, they
are just starting to search through the smoke and ashes to determine the
exact cause of the blaze.
Yet many of them are already reporting difficulty thinking clearly while
going through the wreckage, due to massive confusion inhalation. It is
reported that CRM-114 Discriminators are being brought to the scene, by
the NSA. Back to you, Chris...
<zot> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
11:30 p.m.
On 01/31/2008 06:58:31 PM, Ric Moore wrote:
<<snip>>
Shhhhh...! For Cris' sake, don't WARN the Ubuntu crowd. Just
let Karl
get all nice, warm and cozy there. Let him move in, unpack his bags,
and
settle into his bunker.
* LATE BREAKING NEWS *
In interviews with residents in the Ubuntu neighborhood, they said
this
to the Brain Police, "Well, Karl was just this guy, ya know? He
seemed
quiet enough and kept to himself ...at first. We had no idea. It was
just like a drive-by shooting, we were caught so unaware!"
It was a four-alarm flame-war that broke out in the quiet
neighborhood,
that stunned residents and list-administrators alike, in this once
peaceful area. According to the Jack-Boots and the Brain Police, they
are just starting to search through the smoke and ashes to determine
the
exact cause of the blaze.
Yet many of them are already reporting difficulty thinking clearly
while
going through the wreckage, due to massive confusion inhalation. It
is
reported that CRM-114 Discriminators are being brought to the scene,
by
the NSA. Back to you, Chris...
<zot> Ric
<<snip>>
Ok Ric. That was cute. Malicious. But cute.
I'll save it against later use.
11:54 a.m.
Good stuff Ric;
I like where you keep your tongue parked.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 18:58 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 11:29 -0700, Craig White wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 13:21 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> > On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
> >
> > ... snip ...
> >
> > > Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off the Ubuntu
> > > crowd...?
> > >
> > > I know quite a few Ubuntu guys. A couple are friends and co-workers.
> > > Most are just pro-Ubuntu as opposed to anti-Fedora. Just like most
> > > people here are pro-Fedora as opposed to Anti-Ubuntu. I'd say it was
> > > more just a matter of time...
> >
> > i was going to take the high road but ... oh, what the hell. from
> > months of observation, it would appear that karl's main gripe against
> > fedora is that it didn't work for him for *just those things that he
> > was working on.* ergo, karl concluded that it was a bad distro.
> >
> > apparently, now karl had discovered that ubuntu does *precisely those
> > things* very well indeed, so karl concludes that ubuntu is a better
> > distro and karl is happy. for now.
> >
> > but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
> > is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
> > complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
> > better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
> > in fedora?
> >
> > that's my prediction. would anyone like a piece of that action? i'll
> > give you odds.
> ----
> probably should have followed your initial instincts.
>
> Our loss is Ubuntu's gain
Shhhhh...! For Cris' sake, don't WARN the Ubuntu crowd. Just let Karl
get all nice, warm and cozy there. Let him move in, unpack his bags, and
settle into his bunker.
* LATE BREAKING NEWS *
In interviews with residents in the Ubuntu neighborhood, they said this
to the Brain Police, "Well, Karl was just this guy, ya know? He seemed
quiet enough and kept to himself ...at first. We had no idea. It was
just like a drive-by shooting, we were caught so unaware!"
It was a four-alarm flame-war that broke out in the quiet neighborhood,
that stunned residents and list-administrators alike, in this once
peaceful area. According to the Jack-Boots and the Brain Police, they
are just starting to search through the smoke and ashes to determine the
exact cause of the blaze.
Yet many of them are already reporting difficulty thinking clearly while
going through the wreckage, due to massive confusion inhalation. It is
reported that CRM-114 Discriminators are being brought to the scene, by
the NSA. Back to you, Chris...
<zot> Ric
I find this is all a sure sign that Fedora 8 has very few serious
problems to fix. Perhaps we need F9 sooner than scheduled.
--
Regards Bill
12:53 p.m.
Robert P. J. Day wrote:
but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that
ubuntu
is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
in fedora?
Much of his problems had to do with 3rd party software like the Nvidia
drivers, skype, etc. It's hard to imagine how ubuntu could be more
hostile to 3rd parties than fedora.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:21 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 12:53 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Robert P. J. Day wrote:
> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
> in fedora?
Much of his problems had to do with 3rd party software like the Nvidia
drivers, skype, etc. It's hard to imagine how ubuntu could be more
hostile to 3rd parties than fedora.
----
I'm glad you have such a positive assessment of Fedora.
Craig
1:52 p.m.
Craig White wrote:
>
>> but sooner or later, karl is going to run across something that ubuntu
>> is *worse* at, and it will be just a matter of time before karl is
>> complaining that something in ubuntu doesn't work, and that it's way
>> better in fedora and why don't those ubuntu folks do it like it's done
>> in fedora?
> Much of his problems had to do with 3rd party software like the Nvidia
> drivers, skype, etc. It's hard to imagine how ubuntu could be more
> hostile to 3rd parties than fedora.
----
I'm glad you have such a positive assessment of Fedora.
Feel free to point out how I'm wrong if you can find any cases where the
distro goes out of its way to help enable its users to install/use any
3rd party item. The best thing I can say is that they try to be
internally self-consistent most of the time. But in my opinion, an
operating system should be just be a platform where you install other
things. If it doesn't either provide a stable interface for those
things or a mechanism to help deal with its unstable nature, there's not
much point to using it.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:52 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
>> Much of his problems had to do with 3rd party software like
the
>> Nvidia drivers, skype, etc. It's hard to imagine how ubuntu could be
>> more hostile to 3rd parties than fedora.
> ----
> I'm glad you have such a positive assessment of Fedora.
Feel free to point out how I'm wrong if you can find any cases where the
distro goes out of its way to help enable its users to install/use any
3rd party item. The best thing I can say is that they try to be
internally self-consistent most of the time. But in my opinion, an
operating system should be just be a platform where you install other
things. If it doesn't either provide a stable interface for those
things or a mechanism to help deal with its unstable nature, there's not
much point to using it.
Many years ago, RH used to ship CDE, maybe around RHL 4.x.
Unfortunately, CDE had a security problem. CDE is closed software. RH
takes security more seriously than its supplier did. RH could not get a
fix in a suitable timeframe.
RH immediately withdrew support, suggested people did not use it, and
offered paying customers a credit against their next purchase.
RH was a new company then; anyone who's still around from then is likely
senior management now.
Whatever their beliefs then, I'm sure that that experienced moved them a
a few points towards "open source and only open source."
--
Cheers
John
-- spambait
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5:09 p.m.
John Summerfield wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
>>> Much of his problems had to do with 3rd party software like the
>>> Nvidia drivers, skype, etc. It's hard to imagine how ubuntu could
>>> be more hostile to 3rd parties than fedora.
>> ----
>> I'm glad you have such a positive assessment of Fedora.
>
> Feel free to point out how I'm wrong if you can find any cases where
> the distro goes out of its way to help enable its users to install/use
> any 3rd party item. The best thing I can say is that they try to be
> internally self-consistent most of the time. But in my opinion, an
> operating system should be just be a platform where you install other
> things. If it doesn't either provide a stable interface for those
> things or a mechanism to help deal with its unstable nature, there's
> not much point to using it.
>
Many years ago, RH used to ship CDE, maybe around RHL 4.x.
Unfortunately, CDE had a security problem. CDE is closed software. RH
takes security more seriously than its supplier did. RH could not get a
fix in a suitable timeframe.
RH immediately withdrew support, suggested people did not use it, and
offered paying customers a credit against their next purchase.
RH was a new company then; anyone who's still around from then is likely
senior management now.
Whatever their beliefs then, I'm sure that that experienced moved them a
a few points towards "open source and only open source."
But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user to
install additional software which is why I have an operating system in
the first place.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
5:42 p.m.
But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user to
install additional software which is why I have an operating system in
the first place.
Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non OSS
software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong) partly
philosophical reasons against closed source. Most people here probably
also know you insist of bringing this up in one guise or another every
now and then and I don't expect us to get any further this time, so
please people don't bait him this time... Time you move on from this
gripe (perhaps to Ubuntu yourself ;))
Chris
6:12 p.m.
Chris Jones wrote:
> But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user to
> install additional software which is why I have an operating system in
> the first place.
Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non OSS
software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong) partly
philosophical reasons against closed source.
My point has nothing to do with promoting anything or whether the
additional software meets your religious beliefs or not. It is strictly
about providing a user with a platform that is not limited by design or
its inability to provide stable interfaces.
Most people here probably
also know you insist of bringing this up in one guise or another every
now and then and I don't expect us to get any further this time, so
please people don't bait him this time... Time you move on from this
gripe (perhaps to Ubuntu yourself ;))
If you think I've ever suggested that fedora 'promote' some other
software you aren't paying attention.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
6:42 p.m.
On Jan 30, 2008 6:12 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Chris Jones wrote:
>
>> But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user to
>> install additional software which is why I have an operating system in
>> the first place.
>
> Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non OSS
> software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong) partly
> philosophical reasons against closed source.
My point has nothing to do with promoting anything or whether the
additional software meets your religious beliefs or not. It is strictly
about providing a user with a platform that is not limited by design or
its inability to provide stable interfaces.
You say limit by design, I say do not support. Limit by design would
be to hard code repos into yum. Not support would be to not provide
all repos in yum by default.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
8:09 p.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Jan 30, 2008 6:12 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Chris Jones wrote:
>>> But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user to
>>> install additional software which is why I have an operating system in
>>> the first place.
>> Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non OSS
>> software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong) partly
>> philosophical reasons against closed source.
> My point has nothing to do with promoting anything or whether the
> additional software meets your religious beliefs or not. It is strictly
> about providing a user with a platform that is not limited by design or
> its inability to provide stable interfaces.
You say limit by design, I say do not support. Limit by design would
be to hard code repos into yum. Not support would be to not provide
all repos in yum by default.
OK, I'll take your "do not support" and move on to "intentionally
break"
in every case where something that worked in one version does not work
in the next or after an update. From the perspective of a person who
just wants to run some programs it's all the same when they don't work.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
11 p.m.
On Jan 30, 2008 8:09 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> On Jan 30, 2008 6:12 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> Chris Jones wrote:
>>>> But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user to
>>>> install additional software which is why I have an operating system in
>>>> the first place.
>>> Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non OSS
>>> software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong) partly
>>> philosophical reasons against closed source.
>> My point has nothing to do with promoting anything or whether the
>> additional software meets your religious beliefs or not. It is strictly
>> about providing a user with a platform that is not limited by design or
>> its inability to provide stable interfaces.
>
> You say limit by design, I say do not support. Limit by design would
> be to hard code repos into yum. Not support would be to not provide
> all repos in yum by default.
OK, I'll take your "do not support" and move on to "intentionally
break"
in every case where something that worked in one version does not work
in the next or after an update. From the perspective of a person who
just wants to run some programs it's all the same when they don't work.
Got any examples of that?
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
12:37 a.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>>>>> But that has nothing to do with my point about
enabling the user to
>>>>> install additional software which is why I have an operating system
in
>>>>> the first place.
>>>> Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non OSS
>>>> software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong) partly
>>>> philosophical reasons against closed source.
>>> My point has nothing to do with promoting anything or whether the
>>> additional software meets your religious beliefs or not. It is strictly
>>> about providing a user with a platform that is not limited by design or
>>> its inability to provide stable interfaces.
>> You say limit by design, I say do not support. Limit by design would
>> be to hard code repos into yum. Not support would be to not provide
>> all repos in yum by default.
> OK, I'll take your "do not support" and move on to "intentionally
break"
> in every case where something that worked in one version does not work
> in the next or after an update. From the perspective of a person who
> just wants to run some programs it's all the same when they don't work.
Got any examples of that?
Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules. But every fedora
version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,
firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything that knew device
names would break from one version to the next, CIPE hasn't worked since
FC1... What other OS forces you to go though these contortions
continuously just to continue getting security fixes for the bugs it ships?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
12:48 a.m.
On Jan 31, 2008 12:37 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> Got any examples of that?
Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
I don't receive Karl mail, sorry
But every fedora
version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,
Wasn't aware of this. And you're saying that this is intentional by
the Fedora dev team?
firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything that knew
device
names would break from one version to the next,
While some Fedora devs may be kernel hackers, I doubt they are to
blame for firewire support.
CIPE hasn't worked since
Are you referring to this CIPE?
http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Cipe+Masq.html I wasn't familiar
with the term.
FC1... What other OS forces you to go though these contortions
continuously just to continue getting security fixes for the bugs it ships?
You lost me there. I don't see how this fits with the rest of your
post. where are getting security fixes (udpates) being related to
using software that isn't build for Fedora on Fedora?
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
1:39 a.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> Got any examples of that?
> Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
> be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
I don't receive Karl mail, sorry
> But every fedora
> version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,
Wasn't aware of this. And you're saying that this is intentional by
the Fedora dev team?
Changes don't just happen by accident - someone has to make them.
> firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything that knew
device
> names would break from one version to the next,
While some Fedora devs may be kernel hackers, I doubt they are to
blame for firewire support.
Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.
> CIPE hasn't worked since
Are you referring to this CIPE?
http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Cipe+Masq.html I wasn't familiar
with the term.
Yes, once it was a fill-in-the-form VPN in the networking setup. Next
version it was gone with no options to support existing setups.
> FC1... What other OS forces you to go though these contortions
> continuously just to continue getting security fixes for the bugs it ships?
You lost me there. I don't see how this fits with the rest of your
post. where are getting security fixes (udpates) being related to
using software that isn't build for Fedora on Fedora?
I don't mind doing a substantial amount of work to install things that
weren't planned, but then I'd like it to keep working. You can't just
keep running fedora without putting your box (and everything else on the
network) at risk when the security updates stop. And then there is
almost no chance that you can just repeat your steps with the next
version since it will have a huge number of arbitrary changes, including
things that affect hardware compatibility.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:50 a.m.
On Jan 31, 2008 1:39 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>>> Got any examples of that?
>> Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
>> be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
>
> I don't receive Karl mail, sorry
>
>> But every fedora
>> version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,
>
> Wasn't aware of this. And you're saying that this is intentional by
> the Fedora dev team?
Changes don't just happen by accident - someone has to make them.
But you are implying that this is intentional. I think that's
something you should at least backup if you're going to say it.
>> firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything that
knew device
>> names would break from one version to the next,
>
> While some Fedora devs may be kernel hackers, I doubt they are to
> blame for firewire support.
Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.
Well if the vanilla kernel has this problem, blaming Fedora seems
unreasonable. The general policy is to ship the kernel as vanilla as
possible.
>> CIPE hasn't worked since
>
> Are you referring to this CIPE?
> http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Cipe+Masq.html I wasn't familiar
> with the term.
Yes, once it was a fill-in-the-form VPN in the networking setup. Next
version it was gone with no options to support existing setups.
I guess no one was interested in supporting it. I haven't heard of it
before myself.
>> FC1... What other OS forces you to go though these
contortions
>> continuously just to continue getting security fixes for the bugs it ships?
>
> You lost me there. I don't see how this fits with the rest of your
> post. where are getting security fixes (udpates) being related to
> using software that isn't build for Fedora on Fedora?
I don't mind doing a substantial amount of work to install things that
weren't planned, but then I'd like it to keep working. You can't just
keep running fedora without putting your box (and everything else on the
network) at risk when the security updates stop. And then there is
almost no chance that you can just repeat your steps with the next
version since it will have a huge number of arbitrary changes, including
things that affect hardware compatibility.
I guess your choice of software has a lot of incompatibilities
inherent in it. I am normally up and running on a new Fedora install
for my desktop pretty quickly. I normally spend way more time
customizing the look and feel of my KDE install to my perfection.
It seems that your combination of unsupported software is making
things a lot tougher for you. However, I see no evidence that this is
intentional on the Fedora teams part. Nor do I see how it would
benefit them from exhausting energy into blocking things.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
8:19 a.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>>>
>>> But every fedora
>>> version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,
>> Wasn't aware of this. And you're saying that this is intentional by
>> the Fedora dev team?
> Changes don't just happen by accident - someone has to make them.
But you are implying that this is intentional. I think that's
something you should at least backup if you're going to say it.
I can't prove that it is done for no other reason than to break other
people's software, but I trust that the people making the changes are
bright enough to understand how this works. And it doesn't happen in
RHEL, so there are also people who understand how to keep it from
happening and that it makes for a better user experience.
>>> firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything
that knew device
>>> names would break from one version to the next,
>> While some Fedora devs may be kernel hackers, I doubt they are to
>> blame for firewire support.
> Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
> detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
> fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.
Well if the vanilla kernel has this problem, blaming Fedora seems
unreasonable. The general policy is to ship the kernel as vanilla as
possible.
Why shouldn't I blame fedora if they set a policy that frequently causes
broken code to be shipped? The kernel developers no longer maintain a
separate test version so untested changes are obviously going to be
pushed out if you do that and the user consequences are equally obvious.
>>> CIPE hasn't worked since
>> Are you referring to this CIPE?
>> http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Cipe+Masq.html I wasn't familiar
>> with the term.
> Yes, once it was a fill-in-the-form VPN in the networking setup. Next
> version it was gone with no options to support existing setups.
I guess no one was interested in supporting it. I haven't heard of it
before myself.
OpenVPN is actually better these days, but CIPE was the preferred and
supported VPN through the earlier RH versions and FC1, then poof, gone
with no trace in FC2 and no transition strategy for maintaining
compatibility so you could upgrade piecemeal - and no continuing
security updates for FC1 so you could continue running it.
> And then there is
> almost no chance that you can just repeat your steps with the next
> version since it will have a huge number of arbitrary changes, including
> things that affect hardware compatibility.
I guess your choice of software has a lot of incompatibilities
inherent in it. I am normally up and running on a new Fedora install
for my desktop pretty quickly. I normally spend way more time
customizing the look and feel of my KDE install to my perfection.
It seems that your combination of unsupported software is making
things a lot tougher for you.
I expect an operating system to provide a platform that other things can
run on, either proving stable interfaces so things continue to work
through the fast-paced updates, or some sane way to deal with the
instability.
However, I see no evidence that this is
intentional on the Fedora teams part. Nor do I see how it would
benefit them from exhausting energy into blocking things.
Whether it is a benefit or not depends on the user experience they want
to generate. Who would it harm to provide instructions for installing
common and needed vendor-provide drivers, for example? Is it necessary
to be hostile to both your own users and the best hardware vendors, or
the company that invented java and wants to give it away?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
11:11 a.m.
On Jan 31, 2008 8:19 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> However, I see no evidence that this is
> intentional on the Fedora teams part. Nor do I see how it would
> benefit them from exhausting energy into blocking things.
Whether it is a benefit or not depends on the user experience they want
to generate. Who would it harm to provide instructions for installing
common and needed vendor-provide drivers, for example? Is it necessary
to be hostile to both your own users and the best hardware vendors, or
the company that invented java and wants to give it away?
Instructions from say the community since Fedora is a community based
distribution?
* fedorasolved.org
* fedoraunity.org
I think you're way offline with considering lack of support for this
that you did not pay for with being hostile.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
11:44 a.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> However, I see no evidence that this is
>> intentional on the Fedora teams part. Nor do I see how it would
>> benefit them from exhausting energy into blocking things.
> Whether it is a benefit or not depends on the user experience they want
> to generate. Who would it harm to provide instructions for installing
> common and needed vendor-provide drivers, for example? Is it necessary
> to be hostile to both your own users and the best hardware vendors, or
> the company that invented java and wants to give it away?
Instructions from say the community since Fedora is a community based
distribution?
* fedorasolved.org
* fedoraunity.org
If some entity in the community provided a repository containing, for
example, the Nvidia drivers that many users need, could said entity get
their repository configuration included in this "community based
distribution" to make installation automatic?
I think you're way offline with considering lack of support for
this
that you did not pay for with being hostile.
And I think it is reasonable to compare it to other distributions like
ubuntu instead of just assuming that the hostility should push users to
the for-pay version conveniently provided by a related company.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:02 p.m.
On Jan 31, 2008 11:44 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>>> However, I see no evidence that this is
>>> intentional on the Fedora teams part. Nor do I see how it would
>>> benefit them from exhausting energy into blocking things.
>> Whether it is a benefit or not depends on the user experience they want
>> to generate. Who would it harm to provide instructions for installing
>> common and needed vendor-provide drivers, for example? Is it necessary
>> to be hostile to both your own users and the best hardware vendors, or
>> the company that invented java and wants to give it away?
>
> Instructions from say the community since Fedora is a community based
> distribution?
> * fedorasolved.org
> * fedoraunity.org
If some entity in the community provided a repository containing, for
example, the Nvidia drivers that many users need, could said entity get
their repository configuration included in this "community based
distribution" to make installation automatic?
You do realize, that Fedora cannot do this for legal reason. And
doesn't do this as it goes against the core goal of Fedora in the
first place.
> I think you're way offline with considering lack of support
for this
> that you did not pay for with being hostile.
And I think it is reasonable to compare it to other distributions like
ubuntu instead of just assuming that the hostility should push users to
the for-pay version conveniently provided by a related company.
Right. Because redhat includes Nvidia, Skype and VMWare in their releases.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
1:19 p.m.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> If some entity in the community provided a repository containing,
for
> example, the Nvidia drivers that many users need, could said entity get
> their repository configuration included in this "community based
> distribution" to make installation automatic?
You do realize, that Fedora cannot do this for legal reason.
Beg your pardon? There is nothing illegal about the Nvidia drivers or
providing the access that users need to them.
>> I think you're way offline with considering lack of
support for this
>> that you did not pay for with being hostile.
> And I think it is reasonable to compare it to other distributions like
> ubuntu instead of just assuming that the hostility should push users to
> the for-pay version conveniently provided by a related company.
Right. Because redhat includes Nvidia, Skype and VMWare in their releases.
They don't break these with every kernel update.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
6:27 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> If some entity in the community provided a repository containing, for
>> example, the Nvidia drivers that many users need, could said entity get
>> their repository configuration included in this "community based
>> distribution" to make installation automatic?
>
> You do realize, that Fedora cannot do this for legal reason.
Beg your pardon? There is nothing illegal about the Nvidia drivers or
providing the access that users need to them.
This is true, but part of the problem is that Livna or Freshrpms
(the two major candidates for this) could not be provided as
some of their packages could not be linked legally in the US.
I do suppose that Fedora still would not add them even if there
was a 'clean' repository[1], but that is the audience Ubuntu is
aimed at.
[1] Though has anyone looked at it? To be honest I don't really
care either way; I think it's good that RH is a source of pressure
for OS drivers and notice that providing them hasn't hurt Intel.
--
imalone
2:50 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> If some entity in the community provided a repository containing, for
>> example, the Nvidia drivers that many users need, could said entity get
>> their repository configuration included in this "community based
>> distribution" to make installation automatic?
>
> You do realize, that Fedora cannot do this for legal reason.
Beg your pardon? There is nothing illegal about the Nvidia drivers or
providing the access that users need to them.
They don't have to provide access because rpm.livna.org does.
They shouldn't include them because the bottom line is they taint the
kernel.
I'll never forget the bug report I filed with a repeatable (on my end)
segmentation fault when running the grep command. Guess what was
responsible? the nvidia driver. The nvidia driver was responsible for
causing grep to segfault. the nvidia driver was responsible for a red
hat engineer taking his time to figure out what was happening. Now -
whenever I have a bug I want to report, I repeat it on a machine that
does not have any tainting modules loaded. Closed source kmods sometimes
do funky things.
Fedora should not ship any kernel modules that taint the kernel. They
can not possibly fix issues with them because they do not have access to
the source code.
Let the *user* be responsible for breaking their machine by installing
the driver. Then the issue is between the user and nVidia - not the user
and Fedora.
It is easy enough to get the drivers, it is very well documented on
several blogs and websites. Therefore, Fedora SHOULD wash their hands of
kernel tainting modules.
11:28 a.m.
Michael A. Peters wrote:
I'll never forget the bug report I filed with a repeatable (on my end)
segmentation fault when running the grep command. Guess what was
responsible? the nvidia driver.
Ummm, OK, code has bugs. More news at 11...
Closed source kmods sometimes
do funky things.
As opposed to? I've had several cases where the stock fedora kernel
update would not boot at all on MPT scsi controllers.
Let the *user* be responsible for breaking their machine by
installing
the driver. Then the issue is between the user and nVidia - not the user
and Fedora.
Let's put this discussion off until all the bugs in the rest of the
system have been fixed. Firewire is my poster child for the state of
the system drivers, but it doesn't make sense to point out someone
else's bugs until everything in bugzilla is closed. Besides, there's a
good chance that the bug you saw was really cause by an interface change
on the kernel side.
It is easy enough to get the drivers, it is very well documented on
several blogs and websites.
What does that mean?
Therefore, Fedora SHOULD wash their hands of
kernel tainting modules.
Unless they'd like to have some users.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
12:09 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Michael A. Peters wrote:
>
> I'll never forget the bug report I filed with a repeatable (on my
> end) segmentation fault when running the grep command. Guess what was
> responsible? the nvidia driver.
Ummm, OK, code has bugs. More news at 11...
> Closed source kmods sometimes
> do funky things.
As opposed to? I've had several cases where the stock fedora kernel
update would not boot at all on MPT scsi controllers.
> Let the *user* be responsible for breaking their machine by
> installing the driver. Then the issue is between the user and nVidia
> - not the user and Fedora.
Let's put this discussion off until all the bugs in the rest of the
system have been fixed. Firewire is my poster child for the state of
the system drivers, but it doesn't make sense to point out someone
else's bugs until everything in bugzilla is closed. Besides, there's
a good chance that the bug you saw was really cause by an interface
change on the kernel side.
> It is easy enough to get the drivers, it is very well documented on
> several blogs and websites.
What does that mean?
> Therefore, Fedora SHOULD wash their hands of kernel tainting modules.
Unless they'd like to have some users.
Les,
What OS DO you like. I'm just curious.
~~R
12:45 p.m.
New subject: The "Les-centric" OS World (was)Re: Good bye
Richard England <rlengland(a)verizon.net> wrote: Les Mikesell wrote:
Michael A. Peters wrote:
>
> I'll never forget the bug report I filed with a repeatable (on my
> end) segmentation fault when running the grep command. Guess what was
> responsible? the nvidia driver.
Ummm, OK, code has bugs. More news at 11...
> Closed source kmods sometimes
> do funky things.
As opposed to? I've had several cases where the stock fedora kernel
update would not boot at all on MPT scsi controllers.
> Let the *user* be responsible for breaking their machine by
> installing the driver. Then the issue is between the user and nVidia
> - not the user and Fedora.
Let's put this discussion off until all the bugs in the rest of the
system have been fixed. Firewire is my poster child for the state of
the system drivers, but it doesn't make sense to point out someone
else's bugs until everything in bugzilla is closed. Besides, there's
a good chance that the bug you saw was really cause by an interface
change on the kernel side.
> It is easy enough to get the drivers, it is very well documented on
> several blogs and websites.
What does that mean?
> Therefore, Fedora SHOULD wash their hands of kernel tainting modules.
Unless they'd like to have some users.
Les,
What OS DO you like. I'm just curious.
~~R
--
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I believe the answer to that would be "none," unless of course on the off
chance some distro/windoze combo just by accident happend to run all his apps and hardware
perfectly, with no problems whatsoever. So go see an Astrologer and find out when the
planets will be properly aligned for that so I can start getting ready too!
Mike made some good points effortlessly refuted by Les in rather non-specific terms
(more news?), essentially illustrating for the umpteenth time, there is no viable middle
ground for this discususion from a distro-philosophic standpoint.
But it sure is fun watching the ongoing squabble!
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
5:16 p.m.
New subject: The "Les-centric" OS World (was)Re: Good bye
Paul Shaffer wrote:
Mike made some good points effortlessly refuted by Les in rather
non-specific terms (more news?), essentially illustrating for the
umpteenth time, there is no viable middle ground for this discususion
from a distro-philosophic standpoint.
Don't confuse two different rants. One, that code encumbered with GPL
restrictions can never be distributed in useful forms where you also
need the features provided by code under different terms in something
that can be considered a combined work, is mostly rhetorical since it
can't be changed - although it is something users need to understand.
The other and mostly-current rant is about usability issues that could
be fixed. All commonly needed 3rd party components could be push-button
installs; once installed they could keep working; security updates could
make it reasonable to keep running older working versions until the
worst bugs were fixed in the next update, etc., etc. This part becomes
a value judgment on the tradeoff between development time that might be
used on mechanics instead of usability and the loss of input from the
users that are forced to some other OS. This part can have a middle
ground and useful compromises.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:08 p.m.
Richard England wrote:
Les,
What OS DO you like. I'm just curious.
I'm not sure I 'like' any of them because they all have constraints that
keep them from doing everything I want. Unix (back in the Xenix, AT&T
SysVr3/4 days) was the first OS design that made sense to me and I like
the fact that C code and shell and perl scripts written back then still
work unchanged under Linux - and always did work across processor types.
Now I use CentOS for special-purpose servers and VMware hosts, Windows
for work desktops and general purpose servers that have to be able to
run an assortment of 3rd part apps, a dual boot laptop, and Macs at home.
As an OS, I'd pick OS X as the best mix of unix compatibility, user
friendliness, and supplying everything you need, including patented
technology and vendor written drivers. But, it is tied to certain
hardware and apple likes to make you buy the same thing over again to
get minor upgrades so it won't work everywhere (although the $199 price
for a 5 machine home license for Leopard isn't horrible and it does run
across the G4 and Intel processor lines). If you ever did an upgrade on
a mac or used their included migration tool to move installed users and
applications to a new machine you'd understand why I rant about the
unfriendliness of fedora upgrades and updates. They even migrate
powerpc processor binaries to Intel hardware seamlessly when you
upgrade. So it's hard to buy the Linux claim that they can't keep an
interface stable from one day to the next even on a single processor line.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:56 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
As an OS, I'd pick OS X as the best mix of unix compatibility, user
friendliness, and supplying everything you need, including patented
technology and vendor written drivers. But, it is tied to certain
hardware and apple likes to make you buy the same thing over again to
get minor upgrades so it won't work everywhere (although the $199 price
for a 5 machine home license for Leopard isn't horrible and it does run
across the G4 and Intel processor lines). If you ever did an upgrade on
a mac or used their included migration tool to move installed users and
applications to a new machine you'd understand why I rant about the
unfriendliness of fedora upgrades and updates. They even migrate
powerpc processor binaries to Intel hardware seamlessly when you
upgrade. So it's hard to buy the Linux claim that they can't keep an
interface stable from one day to the next even on a single processor line.
Have fun with OS X when the only machine that has any expansion slots is
their considerably overpriced pro tower. And when you buy that
considerably overpriced pro tower, have fun putting your existing PCI
cards into it.
Whoops! Just like they jacked users when they dropped scsi and serial
ports, now they've jacked users by dropping normal pci slots.
Also have fun with your third party sound cards when the OS updates -
due to their closed source nature, sometimes you have to wait months
before the vendor updates their drivers - even for the expensive high
end sound cards, like m-audio.
Of course, moving your expensive high end m-audio card into your new Pro
Tower will be kind of difficult, due to the complete lack of pci slots.
I guess with a hammer you might be able to make it fit ...
7:04 p.m.
Michael A. Peters wrote:
> As an OS, I'd pick OS X as the best mix of unix compatibility, user
> friendliness, and supplying everything you need, including patented
> technology and vendor written drivers.
Have fun with OS X when the only machine that has any expansion slots
is
their considerably overpriced pro tower. And when you buy that
considerably overpriced pro tower, have fun putting your existing PCI
cards into it.
Whoops! Just like they jacked users when they dropped scsi and serial
ports, now they've jacked users by dropping normal pci slots.
Can't think of anything offhand that I wouldn't prefer to connect via
firewire, USB, or network (with the associated portability and
OS-independence of the devices).
Also have fun with your third party sound cards when the OS updates -
due to their closed source nature, sometimes you have to wait months
before the vendor updates their drivers - even for the expensive high
end sound cards, like m-audio.
What forces you to update the OS before the drivers you need are
available? And why bring up closed source here? Is there an open
source driver for your card at all?
Of course, moving your expensive high end m-audio card into your new
Pro
Tower will be kind of difficult, due to the complete lack of pci slots.
I guess with a hammer you might be able to make it fit ...
Firewire is the right answer for audio, especially if you plan to move
it around. I'm too cheap for that so the only thing I've added is a USB
sound adapter to have a software-selectable alternate output over copper
SPDF to feed a receiver. It doesn't specifically have a Mac driver but
works as a standard USB audio device anyway.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
7:53 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Firewire is the right answer for audio, especially if you plan to
move
it around. I'm too cheap for that so the only thing I've added is a
USB sound adapter to have a software-selectable alternate output over
copper SPDF to feed a receiver. It doesn't specifically have a Mac
driver but works as a standard USB audio device anyway.
Um... Has someone missed
something here? I keep an eye out on various
plug and wire types, because I like that sort of electronic stuff, and
last time I checked Apple has continued to change the USB and Firewire
HARDWARE PORTS with every few versions of their stuff. In fact, I found
multiple rants from people who want to know why Apple is trying to give
themselves a leg up by using Microsoft's embrace & extend on the
hardware side instead of the software side. And you complain because
the drivers don't work for a specific kernel version of Linux? At least
the Linux guys aren't attempting to change the physical interface to
give their audio devices an advantage on the market...
Apple is a horrible example of a user-friendly company, because as of
late they've been learning the Microsoft technique of wresting extra
cash from users and giving themselves an advantage on system
development. Every time I hear someone say Mac OSX is a "true UNIX" I
snicker, because generally running "real UNIX" programs in OSX requires
installing the compatibility layer, because by default OSX does not
support standard UNIX stuff; instead, they support specially rigged
programs designed to interface with Cocoa...
9:23 p.m.
Kelly Miller wrote:
> Firewire is the right answer for audio, especially if you plan to move
> it around. I'm too cheap for that so the only thing I've added is a
> USB sound adapter to have a software-selectable alternate output over
> copper SPDF to feed a receiver. It doesn't specifically have a Mac
> driver but works as a standard USB audio device anyway.
Um... Has someone missed something here? I keep an eye out on
various
plug and wire types, because I like that sort of electronic stuff, and
last time I checked Apple has continued to change the USB and Firewire
HARDWARE PORTS with every few versions of their stuff.
There have always been a bazillion variations of USB connectors. I
haven't noticed any vendor-specific trends with them other than putting
smaller connectors on small equipment. With firewire, the Mac's I've
seen have added firewire 800 ports while retaining a 400 for
compatibility and since firewire is a bus you really only need one (and
they are backwards compatible with a cable adapter anyway).
In fact, I found
multiple rants from people who want to know why Apple is trying to give
themselves a leg up by using Microsoft's embrace & extend on the
hardware side instead of the software side.
If they deviate from the IEEE standards they deserve a rant - and
probably a lawsuit.
And you complain because
the drivers don't work for a specific kernel version of Linux? At least
the Linux guys aren't attempting to change the physical interface to
give their audio devices an advantage on the market...
The hardware isn't going to change for the life of the machine. With
fedora, you are forced to change to have continuing security updates.
Apple is a horrible example of a user-friendly company, because as of
late they've been learning the Microsoft technique of wresting extra
cash from users and giving themselves an advantage on system
development.
Yes, saving money isn't their strong suit, but sometimes having
something that works is more important.
Every time I hear someone say Mac OSX is a "true UNIX" I
snicker, because generally running "real UNIX" programs in OSX requires
installing the compatibility layer, because by default OSX does not
support standard UNIX stuff; instead, they support specially rigged
programs designed to interface with Cocoa...
Do you mean X? That's not a compatibility layer, it's the same thing
everyone else runs for X programs - and you don't need it for command
line/character mode. Cocoa is nicer but you aren't restricted to it and
most open source applications are available through fink or macports.
Some Mac users are fanatic enough that many programs that could run
under X in their generic versions have Cocoa versions (thunderbird,
mozilla, vlc, openoffice, etc.), but it doesn't matter to me. I tend to
spend so much time with NX/freenx, remote desktop, and vnc connections
to remote/different systems that the more similar they are the better.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
9:32 p.m.
Why are you guys arguing Unix vs. Mac on a Fedora users list?
Scott H.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Kelly Miller wrote:
>
>> Firewire is the right answer for audio, especially if you plan to
>> move it around. I'm too cheap for that so the only thing I've added
>> is a USB sound adapter to have a software-selectable alternate
>> output over copper SPDF to feed a receiver. It doesn't specifically
>> have a Mac driver but works as a standard USB audio device anyway.
> Um... Has someone missed something here? I keep an eye out on
> various plug and wire types, because I like that sort of electronic
> stuff, and last time I checked Apple has continued to change the USB
> and Firewire HARDWARE PORTS with every few versions of their stuff.
There have always been a bazillion variations of USB connectors. I
haven't noticed any vendor-specific trends with them other than
putting smaller connectors on small equipment. With firewire, the
Mac's I've seen have added firewire 800 ports while retaining a 400
for compatibility and since firewire is a bus you really only need one
(and they are backwards compatible with a cable adapter anyway).
> In fact, I found multiple rants from people who want to know why
> Apple is trying to give themselves a leg up by using Microsoft's
> embrace & extend on the hardware side instead of the software side.
If they deviate from the IEEE standards they deserve a rant - and
probably a lawsuit.
> And you complain because the drivers don't work for a specific kernel
> version of Linux? At least the Linux guys aren't attempting to
> change the physical interface to give their audio devices an
> advantage on the market...
The hardware isn't going to change for the life of the machine. With
fedora, you are forced to change to have continuing security updates.
> Apple is a horrible example of a user-friendly company, because as of
> late they've been learning the Microsoft technique of wresting extra
> cash from users and giving themselves an advantage on system
> development.
Yes, saving money isn't their strong suit, but sometimes having
something that works is more important.
> Every time I hear someone say Mac OSX is a "true UNIX" I snicker,
> because generally running "real UNIX" programs in OSX requires
> installing the compatibility layer, because by default OSX does not
> support standard UNIX stuff; instead, they support specially rigged
> programs designed to interface with Cocoa...
Do you mean X? That's not a compatibility layer, it's the same thing
everyone else runs for X programs - and you don't need it for command
line/character mode. Cocoa is nicer but you aren't restricted to it
and most open source applications are available through fink or
macports. Some Mac users are fanatic enough that many programs that
could run under X in their generic versions have Cocoa versions
(thunderbird, mozilla, vlc, openoffice, etc.), but it doesn't matter
to me. I tend to spend so much time with NX/freenx, remote desktop,
and vnc connections to remote/different systems that the more similar
they are the better.
10:30 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Michael A. Peters wrote:
>
>> As an OS, I'd pick OS X as the best mix of unix compatibility, user
>> friendliness, and supplying everything you need, including patented
>> technology and vendor written drivers.
> Have fun with OS X when the only machine that has any expansion slots
> is their considerably overpriced pro tower. And when you buy that
> considerably overpriced pro tower, have fun putting your existing PCI
> cards into it.
>
> Whoops! Just like they jacked users when they dropped scsi and serial
> ports, now they've jacked users by dropping normal pci slots.
Can't think of anything offhand that I wouldn't prefer to connect via
firewire, USB, or network (with the associated portability and
OS-independence of the devices).
Connecting devices via firewire that could be installed inside the
machine isn't very elegant and adds to the rats nest that starts to
accumulate around your PC. It also adds to the complexity of moving your
PC, and adds additional points of failure (FireWire cables can and do go
bad).
> Also have fun with your third party sound cards when the OS updates -
> due to their closed source nature, sometimes you have to wait months
> before the vendor updates their drivers - even for the expensive high
> end sound cards, like m-audio.
What forces you to update the OS before the drivers you need are
available? And why bring up closed source here? Is there an open
source driver for your card at all?
I bring up closed source because when you embrace an OS that embraces
closed source drivers, you are at the mercy of the drivers.
I can use my HollyWood+ DXR3 card in latest x86_64 linux. They never
released drivers for XP or Vista (or OS X for that matter) but because
open source drivers exist (though reverse engineered) I don't have to
wait for the vendors to get their act together when I want to move my OS
forward.
> Of course, moving your expensive high end m-audio card into your new
> Pro Tower will be kind of difficult, due to the complete lack of pci
> slots. I guess with a hammer you might be able to make it fit ...
Firewire is the right answer for audio, especially if you plan to move
it around. I'm too cheap for that so the only thing I've added is a USB
sound adapter to have a software-selectable alternate output over copper
SPDF to feed a receiver. It doesn't specifically have a Mac driver but
works as a standard USB audio device anyway.
PCI cards in a PC are less likely to be stolen by someone in a busy
recording environment because you either have to take the whole PC or
open it up. FireWire audio devices can be disconnected and stuffed into
a jacket pocket.
If you move your recording equipment around, theft most certainly is a
consideration (and internal means less things to carry). If you don't
move it around, having it internal is one less wire in the rats nest.
I don't mind the pro having pci express slots, but when there are NO pci
slots - you either stick with your old slower computer or have to buy
new hardware. ISA slots were available in PCs for a long time after PCI
replaced it just for that reason - but Apple has done the same thing
they did when they ditched NuBus - no backwards compatibility at all.
Another example - when they ditched the floppy drive with the
introduction of the iMac, the shop I worked at made a killing. First the
customers would buy a USB floppy drive. Then they would come in asking
how to get those drives to read the 800k floppies (which they couldn't).
There was no serial port, so they couldn't LocalTalk with their old mac
- they either had to buy a NuBus nic from us for the old mac, sometimes
the old mac had a nic but they needed to buy and adapter, they could do
a lot of copying to get the data onto 1440k floppies, they could pay us
to replace the iMac modem with a serial port (losing their modem, but
they then got a serial port which did work with LocalTalk - the USB to
serial adapters didn't) or pay us to transfer the 800k floppies to a cdr
(usually what happened - we had a Beige G3 with a sony CD burner and an
AppleScript that pretty much automated it, except of course feeding the
floppies).
This lack of PCI slots in the pro tower isn't the first time Apple has
done something to screw the users, it's the Apple Way. osx86 project
wouldn't be so popular if Apple did things properly.
Lot of people bought FireWire iPod docks and then the new iPods came out
that can only charge by FireWire, not transfer data - so they were SOL
and had to replace their docks.
There are plenty more examples.
2:18 a.m.
Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.
This is what Fedora does, it tries to stay right on the edge and often
tries out the newest stuff first. Sometimes it breaks thinks. So be it,
things like that can happen. 'Someone' has to try things first and
Fedora chooses to be one of those distros which does. If you don't like
it go somewhere else, there are plenty others which don't do this, but
stop complaining as your gripes are really starting to sound old now.
Chris
11:28 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 08:18 +0000, Chris Jones wrote:
>
> Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
> detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
> fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.
This is what Fedora does, it tries to stay right on the edge and often
tries out the newest stuff first. Sometimes it breaks thinks. So be it,
things like that can happen. 'Someone' has to try things first and
Fedora chooses to be one of those distros which does. If you don't like
it go somewhere else, there are plenty others which don't do this, but
stop complaining as your gripes are really starting to sound old now.
Chris, there is some substance to what he's saying. At RedHat we used
ssh and cipe for working at home away from the office. It was slick. I
haven't had need to use it since, but the entire support team used it
and your passwords were established when you were hired. I've noticed
it's absence but it didn't directly affect me. I guess there is another
defacto scheme used today. Maybe Rahul would qualify what has been
chosen over cipe for internal use. Plus, Les could use that information.
Having encrypted tunneling was pretty nifty. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
11:40 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 00:28 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 08:18 +0000, Chris Jones wrote:
> >
> > Some issues were with the kernel, some with the layering of device
> > detection when the connection is made or at boot time. Regardless,
> > fedora doesn't have to ship a broken kernel just because it exists.
>
> This is what Fedora does, it tries to stay right on the edge and often
> tries out the newest stuff first. Sometimes it breaks thinks. So be it,
> things like that can happen. 'Someone' has to try things first and
> Fedora chooses to be one of those distros which does. If you don't like
> it go somewhere else, there are plenty others which don't do this, but
> stop complaining as your gripes are really starting to sound old now.
Chris, there is some substance to what he's saying. At RedHat we used
ssh and cipe for working at home away from the office. It was slick. I
haven't had need to use it since, but the entire support team used it
and your passwords were established when you were hired. I've noticed
it's absence but it didn't directly affect me. I guess there is another
defacto scheme used today. Maybe Rahul would qualify what has been
chosen over cipe for internal use. Plus, Les could use that information.
Having encrypted tunneling was pretty nifty. Ric
----
cipe support never made it into 2.6 kernel
OpenSWAN support became the defacto standard for VPN on Linux...it's
very robust but not very simple.
OpenVPN is the easier alternative and has some interesting clients for
other OS's too.
Craig
4:02 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>> OK, I'll take your "do not support" and move on
to "intentionally break"
>> in every case where something that worked in one version does not work
>> in the next or after an update. From the perspective of a person who
>> just wants to run some programs it's all the same when they don't work.
>
> Got any examples of that?
Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
And, as always, he was told ages ago the way to get Nvidia working
on Fedora and chose to ignore it until he stumbled onto it by trial
and error. I didn't follow his sound problems closely but they
appeared to be with pulseaudio, which was designed to fix a long-
standing sound problem, is not a kernel issue and, in any case, can
be removed and F8 run without it.
Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm surprised there's
anything left of it.
--
imalone
7:55 a.m.
Ian Malone wrote:
> Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and
sound should
> be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
And, as always, he was told ages ago the way to get Nvidia working
on Fedora and chose to ignore it until he stumbled onto it by trial
and error.
He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
this doesn't work that well.
I didn't follow his sound problems closely but they
appeared to be with pulseaudio, which was designed to fix a long-
standing sound problem, is not a kernel issue and, in any case, can
be removed and F8 run without it.
He tried to remove 'pulseaudio' instead of the obscure package name that
you actually do have to remove and it damaged his system.
Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm surprised
there's
anything left of it.
Does the truth hurt? What's the problem with repeating it? I'd like to
see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the project site about
the expected user experience for the very common situations where a
vendor driver works better than the stock one or is needed to work at
all, the user wants to run java, VMware or a number of other 3rd party
programs, or the user expects to keep running without re-installing for
any length of time.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
8:40 a.m.
On 31/01/2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
this doesn't work that well.
Well, one could Google for the answer, look at the unofficial
FAQs or read the responses on the mailing list and try to
form a sensible assessment of the advice being given.
> Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm
surprised there's
> anything left of it.
Does the truth hurt? What's the problem with repeating it?
Mainly that it got boring a while back.
I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
project site about
[...]
"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software."
--
imalone
8:56 a.m.
Ian Malone wrote:
> I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on
the
> project site about
[...]
"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software."
I know enough about software development to know what that means, but I
wouldn't expect an average potential new user to interpret that as
"we'll ship a lot of broken stuff and pretend it's a feature". And
there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
9:32 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote, On 01/31/2008 09:56 AM:
Ian Malone wrote:
>> I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
>> project site about
> [...]
>
> "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
> free and open source software."
I know enough about software development to know what that means, but I
wouldn't expect an average potential new user to interpret that as
"we'll ship a lot of broken stuff and pretend it's a feature".
Actually I think it's more of a "hey for those of us who tested rawhide, this
stuff was working (or at least not reported as such), red hat would like those
of you who are adventuresome to let them know if some small portion of this is
ready for a truly stable release of RHEL, and if it breaks we'll try to fix it
quick."
And
there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.
I don't think it is so much hostility as ambivalence. As you can see[1] I am
one of those who has ideas and attitudes that conflict with fedora stated
policy. I understand their policy, I just don't like it, and _I_ can work
around the issue for _now_. And if I wanted something that was rock solid,
unchanging, approved for use in ultra secure environments, with an enterprise
support plan, lacking in packages and out of date for the hardware I have to
work with, I would use an RHEL. The reason we have different distro's out
there is because we all have different trade offs we have to make. [must _try_
debian/ubuntu and see if they will integrate something that works NOW with
smart cards for ssh and encrypted file systems, even if they have a _long_
term plan of using something else to do the same thing.]
Oh and notice the ambivalence in the first part of my reply? RH and I differ
on the statement 'fedora is RHEL beta'. :)
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=186469
--
Todd Denniston
Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane)
Harnessing the Power of Technology for the Warfighter
10:06 a.m.
Todd Denniston wrote:
> And there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.
>
I don't think it is so much hostility as ambivalence.
OK, if you describe fedora as 'user ambivalent', it at least makes the
need for ubuntu to exist very clear.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
11:47 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Todd Denniston wrote:
>
>> And there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.
>>
> I don't think it is so much hostility as ambivalence.
OK, if you describe fedora as 'user ambivalent', it at least makes the
need for ubuntu to exist very clear.
I prefer the original definition which was effectively 'non-OSS, binary
kernel blob and alike ambivalent' - You may disagree but many people,
and I think Fedora in general, considers this to be good for the user,
in the long run.
Ubuntu takes a different view point on what is good for the user, which
seems to match yours better. I personally think we need both view
points, and trying to suggest Fedora should become more like Ubuntu is a
bad idea which will never happen.
Chris
12:33 p.m.
Chris Jones wrote:
>>
>>> And there is nothing about the hostility to outside software.
>>>
>> I don't think it is so much hostility as ambivalence.
>
> OK, if you describe fedora as 'user ambivalent', it at least makes the
> need for ubuntu to exist very clear.
I prefer the original definition which was effectively 'non-OSS, binary
kernel blob and alike ambivalent' -
Which, once you understand the need for those items, translates pretty
clearly to user-hostile.
You may disagree but many people,
and I think Fedora in general, considers this to be good for the user,
in the long run.
Yes, I do disagree as I do in other cases where religious beliefs are
used to justify hostile actions as being 'good' for others. My own
belief is that the availability of an 'affordable' system (both in price
and effort to maintain) is much more important than 'free with
restrictions', and 'affordable' won't happen unless all parties
cooperate.
Ubuntu takes a different view point on what is good for the user,
which
seems to match yours better. I personally think we need both view
points, and trying to suggest Fedora should become more like Ubuntu is a
bad idea which will never happen.
I guess whether you think it's good or bad depends on whether you'd like
more or fewer people to learn RH style administration vs. the
debian/ubuntu style. I have enough time invested in learning RH style
that I'd prefer not to start over.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:34 p.m.
Hi,
> I prefer the original definition which was effectively
'non-OSS,
> binary kernel blob and alike ambivalent' -
Which, once you understand the need for those items, translates pretty
clearly to user-hostile.
For you, not for me.
> You may disagree but many people, and I think Fedora in general,
> considers this to be good for the user, in the long run.
Yes, I do disagree as I do in other cases where religious beliefs are
used to justify hostile actions as being 'good' for others. My own
belief is that the availability of an 'affordable' system (both in price
and effort to maintain) is much more important than 'free with
restrictions', and 'affordable' won't happen unless all parties
cooperate.
Religion has nothing to do with this, please don't muddy the waters with
that can-o-worms.
What you believe is fine, I have some sympathy for your view point. My
point is Fedora has placed itself at a particular niche in the linux
distro landscape that doesn't match your wishes. I applaud Fedora for
the semi-radical stance they take and believe we need a distro out there
like that. As much as I believe we need a distro like ubuntu.
> Ubuntu takes a different view point on what is good for the user,
> which seems to match yours better. I personally think we need both
> view points, and trying to suggest Fedora should become more like
> Ubuntu is a bad idea which will never happen.
I guess whether you think it's good or bad depends on whether you'd like
more or fewer people to learn RH style administration vs. the
debian/ubuntu style. I have enough time invested in learning RH style
that I'd prefer not to start over.
For me that is a non issue. I recently did the switch on one of my home
machines and really, once you get over the deb v rpm, apt v yum or sudo
v root differences, the differences are really cosmetic. IMHO anyone who
knows there way around one distro will not take long to find there way
around the other.
Chris
2:05 p.m.
Chris Jones wrote:
Religion has nothing to do with this, please don't muddy the
waters with
that can-o-worms.
I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
them up.
What you believe is fine, I have some sympathy for your view point.
My
point is Fedora has placed itself at a particular niche in the linux
distro landscape that doesn't match your wishes. I applaud Fedora for
the semi-radical stance they take and believe we need a distro out there
like that. As much as I believe we need a distro like ubuntu.
To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
2:27 p.m.
Hi,
I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
them up.
What exactly needs 'proving' ? Fedora have decided, for better or worse,
to take the path they have. They don't need to justify that choice to
anyway. Whether they get (or keep) any users is justification enough.
> What you believe is fine, I have some sympathy for your view point. My
> point is Fedora has placed itself at a particular niche in the linux
> distro landscape that doesn't match your wishes. I applaud Fedora for
> the semi-radical stance they take and believe we need a distro out
> there like that. As much as I believe we need a distro like ubuntu.
To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems. Fedora (I
believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right way to go.
Time will tell if it is the correct approach(/treatment).
Chris
2:28 p.m.
Hi,
I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
them up.
What exactly needs 'proving' ? Fedora have decided, for better or worse,
to take the path they have. They don't need to justify that choice to
anyway. Whether they get (or keep) any users is justification enough.
> What you believe is fine, I have some sympathy for your view point. My
> point is Fedora has placed itself at a particular niche in the linux
> distro landscape that doesn't match your wishes. I applaud Fedora for
> the semi-radical stance they take and believe we need a distro out
> there like that. As much as I believe we need a distro like ubuntu.
To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems. Fedora (I
believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right way to go
(IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct approach(/treatment).
Chris
3:13 p.m.
Chris Jones wrote:
> I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
> them up.
What exactly needs 'proving' ? Fedora have decided, for better or worse,
to take the path they have. They don't need to justify that choice to
anyway. Whether they get (or keep) any users is justification enough.
It doesn't 'need' proving - but without proof it's fair to call it
religion or a cult and maintain an appropriate distance.
> To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
> difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
> against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
> just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
> monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems.
They said that about blood-letting too.
Fedora (I
believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right way to go
(IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct approach(/treatment).
It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension of
the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly make
more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting different
results from continuing to do the same thing?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
3:49 p.m.
100th post to this thread - I stopped reading it around 62.
On Jan 31, 2008 1:13 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Chris Jones wrote:
>
>> I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
>> them up.
>
> What exactly needs 'proving' ? Fedora have decided, for better or worse,
> to take the path they have. They don't need to justify that choice to
> anyway. Whether they get (or keep) any users is justification enough.
It doesn't 'need' proving - but without proof it's fair to call it
religion or a cult and maintain an appropriate distance.
>> To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
>> difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
>> against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
>> just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
>> monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
>
> Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems.
They said that about blood-letting too.
> Fedora (I
> believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right way to go
> (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct approach(/treatment).
It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension of
the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly make
more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting different
results from continuing to do the same thing?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
--
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3:57 p.m.
Yeah, it's gettin' pretty weird.
So Joe, I noticed your email address and wondered if you are any of the fastfish I might
see in the Mopar circles?
Bazooka Joe <fastfish(a)gmail.com> wrote:
100th post to this thread - I stopped reading it around 62.
On Jan 31, 2008 1:13 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
Chris Jones wrote:
>
>> I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
>> them up.
>
> What exactly needs 'proving' ? Fedora have decided, for better or worse,
> to take the path they have. They don't need to justify that choice to
> anyway. Whether they get (or keep) any users is justification enough.
It doesn't 'need' proving - but without proof it's fair to call it
religion or a cult and maintain an appropriate distance.
>> To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
>> difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
>> against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
>> just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
>> monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
>
> Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems.
They said that about blood-letting too.
> Fedora (I
> believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right way to go
> (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct approach(/treatment).
It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension of
the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly make
more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting different
results from continuing to do the same thing?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
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4:08 p.m.
nope, just fastfish in linux circles
2008/1/31 Paul Shaffer <ace_wizard(a)yahoo.com>:
Yeah, it's gettin' pretty weird.
So Joe, I noticed your email address and wondered if you are any of the
fastfish I might see in the Mopar circles?
Bazooka Joe <fastfish(a)gmail.com> wrote:
100th post to this thread - I stopped reading it around 62.
On Jan 31, 2008 1:13 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Chris Jones wrote:
> >
> >> I mean that as opposed to having logical reasons or evidence to back
> >> them up.
> >
> > What exactly needs 'proving' ? Fedora have decided, for better or
worse,
> > to take the path they have. They don't need to justify that choice to
> > anyway. Whether they get (or keep) any users is justification enough.
>
> It doesn't 'need' proving - but without proof it's fair to call it
> religion or a cult and maintain an appropriate distance.
>
> >> To whatever extent this fragments the installed base and makes it
> >> difficult for 3rd party software to run across the variations it works
> >> against the general acceptability of Linux and hurts everyone. We are
> >> just continuing the old unix flavor wars that gave Microsoft an easy
> >> monopoly and ensuring that things can't change.
> >
> > Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems.
>
> They said that about blood-letting too.
>
> > Fedora (I
> > believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right way to go
> > (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct approach(/treatment).
>
> It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension of
> the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly make
> more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting different
> results from continuing to do the same thing?
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
>
> --
>
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list(a)redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>
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4:21 p.m.
> Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems.
They said that about blood-letting too.
Likewise leeches or maggots. But recently modern medicine has come back
around to realise how useful these little beasties are. You point is ?
> Fedora (I believe) are promoting what in the long term is the
right
> way to go (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct
> approach(/treatment).
It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension of
the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly make
more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting different
results from continuing to do the same thing?
Or likewise dedication the willingness to continue with a cause you
believe in in the face to convention.
We can continue like this all day if you want, but it doesn't get us
anywhere...
Chris
6:12 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
> Fedora (I believe) are promoting what in the long term is the
right
> way to go (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct
> approach(/treatment).
It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension
of the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly
make more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting
different results from continuing to do the same thing?
Ahem, last time I checked, the goal of GNU/Linux was not to break the
monopoly, but to create the best free software-based system that can be
made. So uh, how does including non-free components help with that
goal? I have to agree with RMS' statements on that respect; it isn't
worth having GNU/Linux replace Windows if it turns into a closed system
equivalent to Windows itself. What kind of "victory" is that?
And uh, for all your posts about the stability of the system, I have to
wonder why you're not running Debian stable. AFAIK, that is the only
distro line that is guaranteed to work without any bugs of any kind,
mainly because it's years behind the others...
Asking why 3rd party stuff doesn't work when they're considered outside
the system is a little odd, wouldn't you say? It isn't Fedora's fault
that VMWare's sytem doesn't work with it; ask VMWare why, since the
stuff is set up by them.
9:03 p.m.
Kelly Miller wrote:
>> Fedora (I believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right
>> way to go (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct
>> approach(/treatment).
>
> It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an extension
> of the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the monopoly
> make more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as expecting
> different results from continuing to do the same thing?
>
Ahem, last time I checked, the goal of GNU/Linux was not to break the
monopoly, but to create the best free software-based system that can be
made. So uh, how does including non-free components help with that
goal?
Most of the contributions to open source software have come from people
who use it in one way or another, or from commercial companies who have
decided for their own reasons to add open licenses to the code they own.
Anything that increases the user base will almost certainly increase
the contributor base. And making it easy to obtain all needed software
would help increase the user base.
I have to agree with RMS' statements on that respect; it
isn't
worth having GNU/Linux replace Windows if it turns into a closed system
equivalent to Windows itself. What kind of "victory" is that?
First of all, if any virus-spewing Microsoft box can be converted to run
stable, well-tested, standards-conforming software instead, it is a
victory for everyone on the internet. But open source can never 'turn
into' a closed system. The only scenario that might even come close to
that would be if some system were so much better that everyone would
choose it instead - which would also be a victory for everyone having
that choice.
And uh, for all your posts about the stability of the system, I have
to
wonder why you're not running Debian stable. AFAIK, that is the only
distro line that is guaranteed to work without any bugs of any kind,
mainly because it's years behind the others...
There are 2 kinds of stability - one is unchanging and can be good for
interfaces. The other is reliability. Fedora has neither.
Asking why 3rd party stuff doesn't work when they're
considered outside
the system is a little odd, wouldn't you say?
No, I wouldn't say that. As with any other operating systems, I expect
to be able to run other programs on it.
It isn't Fedora's fault
that VMWare's sytem doesn't work with it; ask VMWare why, since the
stuff is set up by them.
When the same program works on one version of an operating system but
not on another, there's nothing to ask. The operating system has
clearly failed to provide a usable interface.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
10:29 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Kelly Miller wrote:
>
>>> Fedora (I believe) are promoting what in the long term is the right
>>> way to go (IMHO). Time will tell if it is truly the correct
>>> approach(/treatment).
>>
>> It's been more than a decade now (if you count fedora as an
>> extension of the earlier RH model) and it just continues to help the
>> monopoly make more money. Doesn't someone define insanity as
>> expecting different results from continuing to do the same thing?
>>
> Ahem, last time I checked, the goal of GNU/Linux was not to break the
> monopoly, but to create the best free software-based system that can
> be made. So uh, how does including non-free components help with
> that goal?
Most of the contributions to open source software have come from
people who use it in one way or another, or from commercial companies
who have decided for their own reasons to add open licenses to the
code they own. Anything that increases the user base will almost
certainly increase the contributor base. And making it easy to obtain
all needed software would help increase the user base.
See, this is the problem
with the whole free vs. open source thing. By
suggesting that open source works better, while ignoring the whole idea
of being FREE behind it, you bring in users who wonder why distros
simply don't include -- insert name of closed-source component du-jour
here -- and then you get distros that include that particular component
in the name of "making things easy for users". However, the REAL
backlash from that decision is what most FLOSS programmers are seeing
from Nvidia and Adobe now; "We don't need to produce open source
software, you can use the closed source stuff instead. After all, isn't
closed source better than nothing?"
No, it's not.
> I have to agree with RMS' statements on that respect; it
isn't worth
> having GNU/Linux replace Windows if it turns into a closed system
> equivalent to Windows itself. What kind of "victory" is that?
First of all, if any virus-spewing Microsoft box can be converted to
run stable, well-tested, standards-conforming software instead, it is
a victory for everyone on the internet. But open source can never
'turn into' a closed system. The only scenario that might even come
close to that would be if some system were so much better that
everyone would choose it instead - which would also be a victory for
everyone having that choice.
Until you realize that such a system is actually no
better than Windows
itself. You're still locked in, you still can't see what's really going
on, and since it's closed, there will likely be hidden hooks designed to
make it hard to use anything else. This is the sort of thing that
occurs when you use non-free software.
> And uh, for all your posts about the stability of the system, I
have
> to wonder why you're not running Debian stable. AFAIK, that is the
> only distro line that is guaranteed to work without any bugs of any
> kind, mainly because it's years behind the others...
There are 2 kinds of stability - one is unchanging and can be good for
interfaces. The other is reliability. Fedora has neither.
You know, I do find it
interesting that for a supposedly unreliable
distro, I haven't changed my install procedure on Fedora in 4 versions.
Are you sure it's not just because you're hitting stuff that most people
don't run into that's causing this supposed unreliability?
> Asking why 3rd party stuff doesn't work when they're considered
> outside the system is a little odd, wouldn't you say?
No, I wouldn't say that. As with any other operating systems, I
expect to be able to run other programs on it.
So do I. I note that I have no
problems running 3rd party programs on
Fedora. I generally just choose not to. However, things like VMWare work.
> It isn't Fedora's fault that VMWare's sytem
doesn't work with it; ask
> VMWare why, since the stuff is set up by them.
When the same program works on one version of an operating system but
not on another, there's nothing to ask. The operating system has
clearly failed to provide a usable interface.
Did you mention things like this
about Windows? Every version suffers
from this problem. Just ask the people trying to switch to Vista.
11:22 p.m.
Kelly Miller wrote:
> Most of the contributions to open source software have come from
> people who use it in one way or another, or from commercial companies
> who have decided for their own reasons to add open licenses to the
> code they own. Anything that increases the user base will almost
> certainly increase the contributor base. And making it easy to obtain
> all needed software would help increase the user base.
See, this is the problem with the whole free vs. open source thing.
By
suggesting that open source works better, while ignoring the whole idea
of being FREE behind it, you bring in users who wonder why distros
simply don't include -- insert name of closed-source component du-jour
here -- and then you get distros that include that particular component
in the name of "making things easy for users". However, the REAL
backlash from that decision is what most FLOSS programmers are seeing
from Nvidia and Adobe now; "We don't need to produce open source
software, you can use the closed source stuff instead. After all, isn't
closed source better than nothing?"
No, it's not.
People should be free to make that decision for themselves separately
for every component. That's what standard interfaces are about, to give
you that freedom. There is nothing free about things that take that
choice away by restrictions or refusal to provide usable interfaces for
interoperability.
>> I have to agree with RMS' statements on that respect; it
isn't worth
>> having GNU/Linux replace Windows if it turns into a closed system
>> equivalent to Windows itself. What kind of "victory" is that?
>
> First of all, if any virus-spewing Microsoft box can be converted to
> run stable, well-tested, standards-conforming software instead, it is
> a victory for everyone on the internet. But open source can never
> 'turn into' a closed system. The only scenario that might even come
> close to that would be if some system were so much better that
> everyone would choose it instead - which would also be a victory for
> everyone having that choice.
Until you realize that such a system is actually no better than
Windows
itself. You're still locked in, you still can't see what's really going
on, and since it's closed, there will likely be hidden hooks designed to
make it hard to use anything else. This is the sort of thing that
occurs when you use non-free software.
No, you are never locked in when components interface properly, there
are choices for each, and they do not include restrictions that affect
each other.
>> And uh, for all your posts about the stability of the system,
I have
>> to wonder why you're not running Debian stable. AFAIK, that is the
>> only distro line that is guaranteed to work without any bugs of any
>> kind, mainly because it's years behind the others...
>
> There are 2 kinds of stability - one is unchanging and can be good for
> interfaces. The other is reliability. Fedora has neither.
You know, I do find it interesting that for a supposedly unreliable
distro, I haven't changed my install procedure on Fedora in 4 versions.
Are you sure it's not just because you're hitting stuff that most people
don't run into that's causing this supposed unreliability?
Yes, of course I want to do different things. Why shouldn't I? Stable
interfaces give you the freedom to do something different instead of
being locked into what comes from a single provider that likes to make
it difficult for you to change or use other components.
>> Asking why 3rd party stuff doesn't work when they're
considered
>> outside the system is a little odd, wouldn't you say?
>
> No, I wouldn't say that. As with any other operating systems, I
> expect to be able to run other programs on it.
So do I. I note that I have no problems running 3rd party programs on
Fedora. I generally just choose not to. However, things like VMWare work.
Yes, after you track down the extra patches that someone has had to
write for each new fedora version. So it's just difficult, not
completely impossible. How many times have you had to locate those
patches so far?
>> It isn't Fedora's fault that VMWare's sytem
doesn't work with it; ask
>> VMWare why, since the stuff is set up by them.
>
> When the same program works on one version of an operating system but
> not on another, there's nothing to ask. The operating system has
> clearly failed to provide a usable interface.
Did you mention things like this about Windows? Every version suffers
from this problem. Just ask the people trying to switch to Vista.
Security updates are still being provided to XP so existing users aren't
being forced to switch yet as they are continuously in fedora, and
there's a chance they will have it mostly fixed by SP2 time. In any
case I can deal with a change once a decade or so. But yes, I will
complain if any of my current programs don't continue to run or else
have push-button updates to fix them.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
3:58 a.m.
On Friday 01 February 2008 05:22:39 Les Mikesell wrote:
Kelly Miller wrote:
<lots of stuff snipped>
>>> Asking why 3rd party stuff doesn't work when
they're considered
>>> outside the system is a little odd, wouldn't you say?
>>
>> No, I wouldn't say that. As with any other operating systems, I
>> expect to be able to run other programs on it.
>
> So do I. I note that I have no problems running 3rd party programs on
> Fedora. I generally just choose not to. However, things like VMWare
> work.
>>> It isn't Fedora's fault that VMWare's sytem doesn't work
with it; ask
>>> VMWare why, since the stuff is set up by them.
>>
>> When the same program works on one version of an operating system but
>> not on another, there's nothing to ask. The operating system has
>> clearly failed to provide a usable interface.
No Les,
Fedora specifically says it will be a bleeding-edge distro. It specifically
says it will have a short release cycle and a short EOL. You can't have a
bleeding-edge distro with a short EOL and have very stable interfaces.
If you want stable interfaces then go for RHEL/CentOS or Debian stable.
>
> Did you mention things like this about Windows? Every version suffers
> from this problem. Just ask the people trying to switch to Vista.
Security updates are still being provided to XP so existing users aren't
being forced to switch yet as they are continuously in fedora, and
there's a chance they will have it mostly fixed by SP2 time. In any
case I can deal with a change once a decade or so. But yes, I will
complain if any of my current programs don't continue to run or else
have push-button updates to fix them.
You try to buy a PC from Dell recently with XP installed. I presume most of
the major manufacturers are the same. It's Vista or bust. Now lets see we had
Windows-98 Windows-nt Windows-2000 Windows-XP Windows-Vista all in the last
decade. That's not counting the home versions versus the professional
versions. Lots of these had incompatibilities.
A chance ;-) XP-SP2 hasn't fixed XP problems why should Vista-SP2 be expected
to fix Vista problems.
Tony
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
12:13 p.m.
Tony Molloy wrote:
> Security updates are still being provided to XP so existing users
aren't
> being forced to switch yet as they are continuously in fedora, and
> there's a chance they will have it mostly fixed by SP2 time. In any
> case I can deal with a change once a decade or so. But yes, I will
> complain if any of my current programs don't continue to run or else
> have push-button updates to fix them.
>
You try to buy a PC from Dell recently with XP installed.
I don't object so much to installing a new system on a new machine
because I normally keep my old ones running to cover anything that won't
work immediately. Once everything is running correctly though, there is
no excuse for breaking it and it should not be necessary to reinstall an
operating system for the life of the hardware.
I presume most of
the major manufacturers are the same. It's Vista or bust. Now lets see we had
Windows-98 Windows-nt Windows-2000 Windows-XP Windows-Vista all in the last
decade. That's not counting the home versions versus the professional
versions. Lots of these had incompatibilities.
You can find exceptions, but just about every third party program would
run across that set because the commonly used interfaces were
maintained. And if you expect a 5-year useful life for hardware, most
of those lasted that span with security updates once MS recognized the
need for them.
A chance ;-) XP-SP2 hasn't fixed XP problems why should Vista-SP2
be expected
to fix Vista problems.
What problems do you still see in XP or 2000+? My updated post-SP2
windows machines are as stable/reliable as anything running Linux. My
laptap sometimes gets into an odd state after many
standby/wakeup-on-a-different-wireless network operations but I haven't
been able to make that work at all under Linux for a comparison. I
haven't closely tracked the size/number of updates, but I'd guess that
there is more update churn in even the Centos5.x distro than a pre-vista
windows. That's not a completely fair comparison because of the
additional apps in the Linux distros, but a few years back I would have
promoted linux as the more stable choice.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:26 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 12:13 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
SNIP!
I don't object so much to installing a new system on a new
machine
because I normally keep my old ones running to cover anything that won't
work immediately. Once everything is running correctly though, there is
no excuse for breaking it and it should not be necessary to reinstall an
operating system for the life of the hardware.
> I presume most of
> the major manufacturers are the same. It's Vista or bust. Now lets see we had
> Windows-98 Windows-nt Windows-2000 Windows-XP Windows-Vista all in the last
> decade. That's not counting the home versions versus the professional
> versions. Lots of these had incompatibilities.
You can find exceptions, but just about every third party program would
run across that set because the commonly used interfaces were
maintained. And if you expect a 5-year useful life for hardware, most
of those lasted that span with security updates once MS recognized the
need for them.
> A chance ;-) XP-SP2 hasn't fixed XP problems why should Vista-SP2 be expected
> to fix Vista problems.
What problems do you still see in XP or 2000+? My updated post-SP2
windows machines are as stable/reliable as anything running Linux. My
laptap sometimes gets into an odd state after many
standby/wakeup-on-a-different-wireless network operations but I haven't
been able to make that work at all under Linux for a comparison. I
haven't closely tracked the size/number of updates, but I'd guess that
there is more update churn in even the Centos5.x distro than a pre-vista
windows. That's not a completely fair comparison because of the
additional apps in the Linux distros, but a few years back I would have
promoted linux as the more stable choice.
Of course the churning that is going on could possibly be related to the
advent of high speed DVD's, Bluetooth, USB, USB2.0, Firewire and RAID,
all of which are still undergoing the kinds of development and
consolidation that IDE went through in the late 80s to 90s.
Also we are asking so much more of our systems, with 3d graphics,
multiple processors, threading, and processor parallel loading and
stream changing on the fly.
I worked in the IC test field. ICs have gone from a 7 year cycle in
the early 80's to a 18 month cycle in 2005 when I retired. I suspect
that since two generations of devices have passed since then that the
cycle has dropped another 10-20%. At the same time, processor, memory
and system speeds have gone from about 30Mhz at top end to over 8Ghz
today. Test programs up until 2002 were typically generated by one
individual coding like a madman, and simultaneously designing the
hardware to run the devices and code. When I left in 2004, a typical
program took a team of 3 to 4 to develop, was required to run 4 devices
in parallel for mixed signal, two devices in parallel for RF Asics, and
be developed in about 7 months, including all correlation and other
issues. One man couldn't have done it even if he were a wizard. The
devices changed as well, from maybe a few thousand gates to SoC's with a
full processor, memory, RF, IF, audio, and peripheral drivers on board.
A cellphone was just about three chips I think, and today they are
almost disposable, even with camera's on board.
All of this impacts OS software as well, as the advances require
processing more and more diverse data, stranger new applications that no
one could have seen coming (Second Life or Croquet anyone?) All of this
churns the software, and interface requirements. Think about just video
for example, there are dozens of compression formats, multiple forms of
displays, and several algorithms to accomplish each part of the process.
Add in stop, pause, run, fast forward, fast reverse, run reverse, and
some differing audio standards of 2,3,4,5,6, and more channels, along
with audio decoding and encoding to the correct reproduction standard,
and it gets a bit complex, just to see a twenty second clip of some
politician selling the latest snake oil.
Someone said, the only thing constant is the rate of change, which
means to those of us old enough a perception that it is logarithmic.
I know that this doesn't add much, but think about this. My first
computer was one printed circuit board. It had 2K or memory, an 8080 (I
think), and four LED number displays with a hex keypad. I had voice
output (dutycycle operations on a bit to a speaker), and tape storage
using audio cassette at about 8Kbaud that I wrote myself. It ran at a
whopping 2Mhz I think (I had some bits before that, but they were mostly
just experiments with soldering chips together on protoboard).
I am writing this on a system with over 800G of storage, running at
2Ghz, dual processors, with 1G of memory, over a network that runs at
multiple gigs at least part of the way, and all of you can see it and
read it all over the world in seconds if things go well.
That is the past 30 years. What will full immersion and higher
technology bring in 30 more years? Any guesses? How will the
processors, operating systems, networking and hardware keep up with
that? Will we be part of the next three decades of development?
Along with that, I like this quote:
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that
there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."
— John Kenneth Galbraith
I like to think I am on the chaning mind side of that quote...
Regards,
Les H
2:08 p.m.
Les wrote:
Of course the churning that is going on could possibly be related to
the
advent of high speed DVD's, Bluetooth, USB, USB2.0, Firewire and RAID,
all of which are still undergoing the kinds of development and
consolidation that IDE went through in the late 80s to 90s.
And all of which could be isolated to driver modules behind an
unchanging kernel interface so the OS could do its unix-like job of
presenting every device as a stream-of-bytes without having to change
everything else every time a new piece of hardware is invented.
Someone said, the only thing constant is the rate of change, which
means to those of us old enough a perception that it is logarithmic.
Which just emphasizes the need to stabilize the layers so they can
change independently.
I know that this doesn't add much, but think about this. My
first
computer was one printed circuit board. It had 2K or memory, an 8080 (I
think), and four LED number displays with a hex keypad. I had voice
output (dutycycle operations on a bit to a speaker), and tape storage
using audio cassette at about 8Kbaud that I wrote myself. It ran at a
whopping 2Mhz I think (I had some bits before that, but they were mostly
just experiments with soldering chips together on protoboard).
About the 2nd thing you should have learned from that 8080 system was
that if you wrote something in it's native assembly language and used
unique features of its OS (if it had one) you'd have to throw it all out
as soon as that hardware was obsolete (well, I suppose you could have
moved to a Z80 for another year when the designer moved from Intel to
Zilog and kept opcodes backwards compatible...)
I am writing this on a system with over 800G of storage, running at
2Ghz, dual processors, with 1G of memory, over a network that runs at
multiple gigs at least part of the way, and all of you can see it and
read it all over the world in seconds if things go well.
I hope somewhere along the line you started writing in C or a similarly
standardized language and using an OS that presented a standard
interface so your own work was no longer obsoleted along with the platforms.
That is the past 30 years. What will full immersion and higher
technology bring in 30 more years? Any guesses? How will the
processors, operating systems, networking and hardware keep up with
that? Will we be part of the next three decades of development?
Along with that, I like this quote:
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that
there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."
— John Kenneth Galbraith
I like to think I am on the chaning mind side of that quote...
The problem with change is the amount of baggage that goes along with
the actual piece that needed the change. If you standardize interfaces,
you can change any single piece without throwing the rest out.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
10:11 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 14:08 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
If you standardize interfaces, you can change any single piece
without
throwing the rest out.
That goes both ways. If you don't change how your device does its
tricks, then the kernel doesn't need to, either, and things should just
keep on working.
--
(This computer runs FC7, my others run FC4, FC5 & FC6, in case that's
important to the thread.)
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.
11:27 p.m.
Tim wrote:
> If you standardize interfaces, you can change any single piece without
> throwing the rest out.
That goes both ways. If you don't change how your device does its
tricks, then the kernel doesn't need to, either, and things should just
keep on working.
Until you have to replace the kernel due to security updates, and to get
the fix you drag along its changed interfaces.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
9:50 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Tony Molloy wrote:
>> Security updates are still being provided to XP so existing users aren't
>> being forced to switch yet as they are continuously in fedora, and
>> there's a chance they will have it mostly fixed by SP2 time. In any
>> case I can deal with a change once a decade or so. But yes, I will
>> complain if any of my current programs don't continue to run or else
>> have push-button updates to fix them.
>>
>
> You try to buy a PC from Dell recently with XP installed.
I don't object so much to installing a new system on a new machine
because I normally keep my old ones running to cover anything that won't
work immediately. Once everything is running correctly though, there is
no excuse for breaking it and it should not be necessary to reinstall an
operating system for the life of the hardware.
Bottom line is Fedora does make it easy to use 3rd party software.
The RPM system is open and well documented, any vendor that wants to can
create RPM packages. Some have. Any vendor that wants to can create a
YUM repository for automated updates. Some have.
If vmware/nvidia/whoever wants to have good compatibility with Fedora,
the ball is in their court - it is easy for them to do so.
Adobe already runs a repo for the flash plugin, I hope they add Acrobat
Reader to it. I don't care for nVidia's installer but rpm.livna.org
provides a safe packaging for their drivers.
btw - speaking of nvidia - I have a src.rpm right now that fails to
build in mock in x86_64 CentOS and Fedora 8 if (and only if) the nVidia
driver is loaded. Without the driver loaded, it builds just fine. It
builds in x86 the nvidia driver if I scale the cpu speed down but not at
full speed. About ~150 other src.rpm's did not exhibit that issue, but
this one does consistently.
The driver is thus broken (causes other programs to fail). RHEL/Fedora
do ship some drivers that are broken, very rarely are there zaro bugs in
software. But when open source and discovered, they can be patched. How
would Fedora patch the closed source nVidia driver? They can't. If they
shipped it, they would be shipping something they can't fix.
4:09 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
[ cut discussion of free vs opensource etc]
People should be free to make that decision for themselves separately
for every component. That's what standard interfaces are about, to give
you that freedom. There is nothing free about things that take that
choice away by restrictions or refusal to provide usable interfaces for
interoperability.
I think you are making an argument that you will never win here.
Fedora makes no guarantee of a stable API or ABI. This would be
impossible to do while trying to follow upstream - rebasing kernel
versions and so on is definitely going to interfere with this.
If (for example) VMWare only works with kernel version <blah> and they
don't keep up with newer releases, then it will break if you update your
kernel. So don't (unless you know they have patched vmware to cope).
There will be other software that falls into this category.
Vendors do not on the whole support fedora because of issues like this.
If you want ABI/API stability to be guaranteed for the lifetime of a
product, then RHEL (or CENTOS or one of the other rebuilds) would
provide you with this, and I am fairly sure that the 3rd-party stuff
would work for them (I haven't tested).
Fedora is a moving target, which is something that its users have to
accept. Most of us do.
[snip more of the same argument, more or less]
oh, as for not providing immediate access to closed-source or in some
cases US-patent-infringing software, this is also part of the fedora
'mission' and is also a safety issue.
Fedora receives a fair amount of backing from Red Hat, who have some
money and are based in the US - they become an obvious target for
money-grubbing lawsuits, which I suspect would not upset some other
large software companies. If you don't like this, you are free to respin
a Fedora clone of your own that does provide this access out of the box.
many people seem to understand why Fedora has this restriction. It's not
likely to change.
Stuart
--
Stuart Sears RHCA etc.
1:29 p.m.
On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 10:09 +0000, Stuart Sears wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
[ cut discussion of free vs opensource etc]
> People should be free to make that decision for themselves separately
> for every component. That's what standard interfaces are about, to give
> you that freedom. There is nothing free about things that take that
> choice away by restrictions or refusal to provide usable interfaces for
> interoperability.
I think you are making an argument that you will never win here.
Fedora makes no guarantee of a stable API or ABI. This would be
impossible to do while trying to follow upstream - rebasing kernel
versions and so on is definitely going to interfere with this.
The old kernel development model was much more third-party developer
friendly in this sense. It used to be that even minor version numbers
(2.4.x) were stable in this sense and odd minor numbers (2.5.x) were
not. Then a distro could include the even ones and developers could
rely on the API and ABI until the next even release came out. In the
meantime, they had time to adapt to changes being made in the odd
releases. The odd releases were generally made available by distros for
testing by the stout of heart.
If (for example) VMWare only works with kernel version <blah> and they
don't keep up with newer releases, then it will break if you update your
kernel. So don't (unless you know they have patched vmware to cope).
There will be other software that falls into this category.
Vendors do not on the whole support fedora because of issues like this.
Keeping up with rapid API/ABI version changes is a burden for any
third-party developer, not just proprietary ones. Having to go back and
continually modify older code for compatibility distracts from
development of new features. It also introduces these delays where
users can't move to new kernels (which might include critical security
fixes) or must forgo their third-party codes until their vendors catch
up.
If you want ABI/API stability to be guaranteed for the lifetime of a
product, then RHEL (or CENTOS or one of the other rebuilds) would
provide you with this, and I am fairly sure that the 3rd-party stuff
would work for them (I haven't tested).
Les's argument here is that it's hard to get the latest application
software without committing to live with the instability at the kernel
level. RHEL5 is still shipping Firefox 1.1.5 AFAIK, and equally ancient
versions of other applications. That may be fine for enterprise
managers, but many single users and developers would like to be able to
keep up with application and toolchain advances.
People talk about TCO and point out that there's lots more application
software bundled with with a typical Linux distro than with Windows.
That's all very good, but unbundled applications have the advantage that
the user isn't tied to the bundled release of the application if they
want to stay with a particular version of the system.
Fedora is a moving target, which is something that its users have to
accept. Most of us do.
Some of us accept it--or even welcome it--for some things but find that
it's a burden for others. There's no reason not to consider changes in
policy that would address some of the disadvantages of this situation
without doing too much violence to the advantages.
[snip more of the same argument, more or less]
oh, as for not providing immediate access to closed-source or in some
cases US-patent-infringing software, this is also part of the fedora
'mission' and is also a safety issue.
Fedora receives a fair amount of backing from Red Hat, who have some
money and are based in the US - they become an obvious target for
money-grubbing lawsuits, which I suspect would not upset some other
large software companies. If you don't like this, you are free to respin
a Fedora clone of your own that does provide this access out of the box.
many people seem to understand why Fedora has this restriction. It's not
likely to change.
I don't mind dealing with the need to go get third-party software from
third parties. One has to do so for Windows as well. The set of things
that one needs to get from third parties in order to have a system that
performs most of the common tasks a user expects is just different.
But there seems to be an attitude on the part of some people in the
community that the best way to pressure vendors of proprietary software
to open their code is to force users who need that software to suffer
without it. I think that alienates users and is counterproductive.
Stuart
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Mathematical Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
10:12 p.m.
Matthew Saltzman wrote:
*snip*
level. RHEL5 is still shipping Firefox 1.1.5 AFAIK, and equally
ancient
versions of other applications. That may be fine for enterprise
managers, but many single users and developers would like to be able to
keep up with application and toolchain advances.
RHEL5 has the latest 1.5 firefox - but you can easily install 2.0 if you
want to. In fact, RHEL has even created a directory called /usr/local
just to make it easier for you.
RHEL 5 software is not "ancient" versions. It is stable versions.
I ran Fedora 8 on two different computers and experienced much
instability. Running CentOS 5 on them and things were peachy and "just
worked". Same tasks.
There isn't really much I can do in F8 that I can't in CentOS. I may not
be able to easily get pulseaudio working, but I don't think I really
want to. (I probably could if I tried ...)
People talk about TCO and point out that there's lots more application
software bundled with with a typical Linux distro than with Windows.
That's all very good, but unbundled applications have the advantage that
the user isn't tied to the bundled release of the application if they
want to stay with a particular version of the system.
You can update software if you want. Libraries can be difficult if not
packaged properly, but if packaged properly, you should be able to have
many different versions installed at once. Usually the only potential
problem with multiple versions of the same library is conflicts in the
devel package, which end users don't need.
/usr/local and /opt are good places to install newer versions of
applications. For example, you can install FireFox 2 and Thunderbird 2
in /usr/local on RHEL 5. You will also need to install the RHEL provided
older version of libstdc++.
> Fedora is a moving target, which is something that its users have to
> accept. Most of us do.
Some of us accept it--or even welcome it--for some things but find that
it's a burden for others. There's no reason not to consider changes in
policy that would address some of the disadvantages of this situation
without doing too much violence to the advantages.
Third party package repositories (ie livna) do that quite well.
I don't mind dealing with the need to go get third-party software from
third parties. One has to do so for Windows as well. The set of things
that one needs to get from third parties in order to have a system that
performs most of the common tasks a user expects is just different.
But there seems to be an attitude on the part of some people in the
community that the best way to pressure vendors of proprietary software
to open their code is to force users who need that software to suffer
without it. I think that alienates users and is counterproductive.
No - no one wants to force users to suffer.
The user community is full of resources to help the new user out and get
those things working. Usually it is only difficult because the new user
thinks it needs to be and tries to do things the wrong way, counter to
instructions clearly given numerous times on mail lists and newsgroup
postings.
10:51 p.m.
Michael A. Peters wrote:
> level. RHEL5 is still shipping Firefox 1.1.5 AFAIK, and equally
ancient
> versions of other applications. That may be fine for enterprise
> managers, but many single users and developers would like to be able to
> keep up with application and toolchain advances.
RHEL5 has the latest 1.5 firefox - but you can easily install 2.0 if you
want to. In fact, RHEL has even created a directory called /usr/local
just to make it easier for you.
How do you install a copy that will update itself automatically when
security updates are issued?
RHEL 5 software is not "ancient" versions. It is stable
versions.
That should be the upstream author's designation, shouldn't it? Does
the mozilla group still even admit that firefox 1.5 exists? What about
the beta dovecot that was shipped in RHEL4 and never updated to the
release version? Complaints about the old bugs kept showing up in the
upstream mailing list years after the stable release, confusing everyone.
I ran Fedora 8 on two different computers and experienced much
instability.
Which means that's probably not the best way to get current versions of
firefox, thunderbird, and OpenOffice.
> People talk about TCO and point out that there's lots more
application
> software bundled with with a typical Linux distro than with Windows.
> That's all very good, but unbundled applications have the advantage that
> the user isn't tied to the bundled release of the application if they
> want to stay with a particular version of the system.
You can update software if you want.
You can compile your own kernel and assemble your own distribution from
scratch too. Then you have to maintain them, which most people can't
afford to do. Wouldn't it make more sense to have mostly compatible
repositories for unstable/testing/stable versions of programs so you
could update specific programs where you need new features without
having to deal with instability in all the others?
> But there seems to be an attitude on the part of some people in
the
> community that the best way to pressure vendors of proprietary software
> to open their code is to force users who need that software to suffer
> without it. I think that alienates users and is counterproductive.
No - no one wants to force users to suffer.
You aren't from around here, are you?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
11:15 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Michael A. Peters wrote:
>> level. RHEL5 is still shipping Firefox 1.1.5 AFAIK, and equally ancient
>> versions of other applications. That may be fine for enterprise
>> managers, but many single users and developers would like to be able to
>> keep up with application and toolchain advances.
>
> RHEL5 has the latest 1.5 firefox - but you can easily install 2.0 if
> you want to. In fact, RHEL has even created a directory called
> /usr/local just to make it easier for you.
How do you install a copy that will update itself automatically when
security updates are issued?
Install it in your home directory and use the FireFox update utility -
just like you have to in Windows or OS X. Or use a FF2 rpm from a third
party repo.
Which means that's probably not the best way to get current versions of
firefox, thunderbird, and OpenOffice.
Right - but there are third parties that provide yum-able updates for
all of those if you want them.
You aren't from around here, are you?
I sure am - I see questions asked and answered all the time about how to
get those things to work.
2:09 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
That should be the upstream author's designation, shouldn't
it? Does
the mozilla group still even admit that firefox 1.5 exists? What
about the beta dovecot that was shipped in RHEL4 and never updated to
the release version? Complaints about the old bugs kept showing up in
the upstream mailing list years after the stable release, confusing
everyone.
Wait, wait, wait. You were complaining about Fedora being too far ahead
and being unstable, and now you're knocking RHEL for being too far
behind? What exactly do you want?
I'm starting to think that the guys who said you simply want a distro
custom-tailored to your exact specs are right. What would satisfy you,
a distro with all the latest versions that doesn't have any bugs in it
or something?
4:29 a.m.
Kelly Miller wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
> That should be the upstream author's designation, shouldn't it? Does
> the mozilla group still even admit that firefox 1.5 exists? What
> about the beta dovecot that was shipped in RHEL4 and never updated to
> the release version? Complaints about the old bugs kept showing up in
> the upstream mailing list years after the stable release, confusing
> everyone.
Wait, wait, wait. You were complaining about Fedora being too far ahead
and being unstable, and now you're knocking RHEL for being too far
behind? What exactly do you want?
I'm starting to think that the guys who said you simply want a distro
custom-tailored to your exact specs are right. What would satisfy you,
a distro with all the latest versions that doesn't have any bugs in it
or something?
If that's really what he wants, he can have it mow:
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
;)
I've actually gone through the project a couple time (first time was
actually on a PPC - using Yellow Dog as the initial OS) - I probably
should again at some point, it's a great learning (and re-learning)
experience, though it is too time consuming to keep it up to patch level
for normal use for any length of time.
If he really wants RHEL/CentOS with FireFox/Thunderbird 2 - I'll give a
shameless plug:
http://www.pennywasted.info/centos/yjl.php
I have a small repo dedicated just for FireFox/Thunderbird updates to
CentOS 5.x (FireFox and Thunderbird are rebuilds of F8 src.rpm's - it
also has rebuilds of the two RHEL/CentOS rpm's that break due to
gecko-libs change)
Please note - FireFox 2 is a little wonky on my low memory machines (384
MB laptop and 512MB desktop) it crashes a lot - the binary tarball
release from Mozilla is much more stable (but because it is built
against a different libstdc++ than icedtea, the icedtea java plugin
doesn't load in their release)
On my 2GB x86_64 machine I haven't experienced crashing. Me thinks the
crashing on the low memory x86 is caused by a memory leak that my higher
mem machine can handle better, but I haven't fully investigated.
Thunderbird 2 works great on low mem machines - other than it can't read
local system mail. But that's what alpine in EPEL is for.
7:56 a.m.
Kelly Miller wrote:
> That should be the upstream author's designation, shouldn't it? Does
> the mozilla group still even admit that firefox 1.5 exists? What
> about the beta dovecot that was shipped in RHEL4 and never updated to
> the release version? Complaints about the old bugs kept showing up in
> the upstream mailing list years after the stable release, confusing
> everyone.
Wait, wait, wait. You were complaining about Fedora being too far ahead
and being unstable, and now you're knocking RHEL for being too far
behind? What exactly do you want?
I'd like to be able to keep running a well-tested kernel and device
drivers on hardware where it already works with continuing security
updates that don't break the interfaces. The system libraries and
anything likely to cause the machine to crash should be equally tested
and stable. Having an optional newer kernel to be used with newer
hardware would be a plus but not a requirement if the version cycle is
less than 2 years (RHEL/CentOS are fine in this respect). Then
optionally, it should be possible to install current versions of
applications into this stable OS to get up to date features without
making it likely that you will crash the machine - and having installed
them, they should track updates like the rest of the system.
I'm starting to think that the guys who said you simply want a
distro
custom-tailored to your exact specs are right. What would satisfy you,
a distro with all the latest versions that doesn't have any bugs in it
or something?
Having compatible stable, unstable, testing, repositories might work. I
believe another distro uses that approach successfully but has the
disadvantage on not following a release schedule to help users decide if
they should wait for the next stable release or deal with less stable
things for features they need.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:12 a.m.
Hi,
When the same program works on one version of an operating system but
not on another, there's nothing to ask. The operating system has
clearly failed to provide a usable interface.
We don't want stable interfaces (not quite yet, maybe in time). Windows
may have more stability in this regard, but the down side is you end up
stuck with bad interfaces that you cannot change due to 'compatibility'
issues. Users of these interfaces then start writing there own kludgy
workarounds. A mess.
Linux IMHO, has a different view. If an interface is broken don't try
and live with it but fix it. If this breaks things downstream so be it,
in the OSS world fixing things is not so hard. The problems are with
closed sourced entities where those changing the interface cannot fix
the closed source.
Lets be specifc - Most of the issues you refer to (nivida, vmware)
relate to the kernel. Here developers may change some interface, but
such changes are internal to the kernel, like drivers. In this case
those changing the interface fix the driver so the end shot is all is
still OK. They cannot do this for closed source stuff, which is why such
things are disliked and distros like Fedora do not support them. A quote
from Linus I recently read
"Asked by Zemlin why the Linux kernel does not have a stable device
driver application binary interface, Torvalds said, "We really,
really, really don't want one. The main reason most people want a
stable ABI [application binary interface] is so that they can have
their binary drivers and not have to give out source. They don't want
to merge that source into the stable kernel or the standard kernel.""
I for one agree and do not want the kernel developers to stop changing
(improving) things just to provide a more stable interface to external
closed source stuff drivers etc. If those closed source providers want
to support linux, they either keep up with the kernel developers (which
they could if they wanted, kernel release candidates are always
available before release) or they allow their drivers to be OSS'ed and
placed in the kernel, where they will be maintained 'for free'.
One day kernel development might slow down, but I don't want that to
happen prematurely and for us to end up with bad interfaces.
Chris
11:56 a.m.
Chris Jones wrote:
> When the same program works on one version of an operating system
but
> not on another, there's nothing to ask. The operating system has
> clearly failed to provide a usable interface.
We don't want stable interfaces (not quite yet, maybe in time).
Freedom doesn't consist of telling other people what they want. It is
about everyone having choices.
Windows
may have more stability in this regard, but the down side is you end up
stuck with bad interfaces that you cannot change due to 'compatibility'
issues. Users of these interfaces then start writing there own kludgy
workarounds. A mess.
Examples? I have reasons to dislike windows, but they mostly go back to
pre-win2ksp2 days. I can't think of any particular driver-related
issues that are a problem now. Likewise the binary OS X drivers work
just fine for me.
Linux IMHO, has a different view. If an interface is broken don't
try
and live with it but fix it. If this breaks things downstream so be it,
in the OSS world fixing things is not so hard. The problems are with
closed sourced entities where those changing the interface cannot fix
the closed source.
Lets be specifc - Most of the issues you refer to (nivida, vmware)
relate to the kernel.
OK, let's be specific. Start with firewire. I can't afford to deal
with firewire as it has been handled in fedora for the 1st 6 versions
and haven't tried with the last 2 yet. Show me how having people who
have no reason to care if a device driver works or not writing the code
has worked out better than making it simple for vendors to provide drivers.
Here developers may change some interface, but
such changes are internal to the kernel, like drivers. In this case
those changing the interface fix the driver so the end shot is all is
still OK. They cannot do this for closed source stuff, which is why such
things are disliked and distros like Fedora do not support them. A quote
from Linus I recently read
"Asked by Zemlin why the Linux kernel does not have a stable device
driver application binary interface, Torvalds said, "We really,
really, really don't want one.
Once again, I'm not particularly interested in someone telling me what I
want.
The main reason most people want a
stable ABI [application binary interface] is so that they can have
their binary drivers and not have to give out source. They don't want
to merge that source into the stable kernel or the standard kernel.""
And that part is simply self-serving refusal to cooperate with anyone
else through standard interfaces.
I for one agree and do not want the kernel developers to stop
changing
(improving) things just to provide a more stable interface to external
closed source stuff drivers etc.
I might have agreed back when I thought Linus was inexperienced at OS
design and incapable of specifying an interface suitable for use over
some length of time. I don't think that is the case anymore. And I
might has agreed that source was important back when many companies were
competing with incompatible processor designs and there was some change
a device might need to be moved to a new/different system. Now I just
want an interface that works for the life of the box.
If those closed source providers want
to support linux, they either keep up with the kernel developers (which
they could if they wanted, kernel release candidates are always
available before release) or they allow their drivers to be OSS'ed and
placed in the kernel, where they will be maintained 'for free'.
I can't afford to use something 'free' that doesn't work as well as
something written by the vendor that knows the most about the device in
question and has the most reason to care about it operating correctly.
There's nothing wrong with source availability and, other things being
equal, it is a good thing if everyone chooses not to place any
restrictions on what others can do with it. However it is no more
necessary for me to have source to a device driver for my purposes than
to have all the parts to assemble a jet before I would ride in one.
One day kernel development might slow down, but I don't want that
to
happen prematurely and for us to end up with bad interfaces.
How old must Linus be before you'll trust him with this decision?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
12:27 p.m.
Freedom doesn't consist of telling other people what they want.
It is
about everyone having choices.
Indeed. You have the choice not to use Fedora, if you don't like the
choices it has taken as a community of users. You are free to use
another distro that fits your expectations of stability, such as Centros.
Why you persist in trying to suggest Fedora should turn into something
it doesn't want to be, and extremely unlikely to ever be, is beyond me.
Chris
1:09 p.m.
Chris Jones wrote:
> Freedom doesn't consist of telling other people what they want. It is
> about everyone having choices.
Indeed. You have the choice not to use Fedora, if you don't like the
choices it has taken as a community of users.
And I don't, other than as a curiosity.
You are free to use
another distro that fits your expectations of stability, such as Centros.
I do, wherever Linux can be used at all - but Centos inherits most of
the problems from fedora and thus can't be used in many situations either.
Why you persist in trying to suggest Fedora should turn into
something
it doesn't want to be, and extremely unlikely to ever be, is beyond me.
I guess my expectations were set badly back in the early RH days when
the experimental branch of the kernel wasn't used and versions were
supported and fixed with ongoing point releases. Fedora has turned out
to be one of those things like someone giving you a puppy that looks
cute but you can't afford the upkeep and then you find out it doesn't
play well with others.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
1:29 p.m.
On Feb 1, 2008 12:27 PM, Chris Jones <jonesc(a)hep.phy.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Freedom doesn't consist of telling other people what they want. It is
> about everyone having choices.
Indeed. You have the choice not to use Fedora, if you don't like the
choices it has taken as a community of users. You are free to use
another distro that fits your expectations of stability, such as Centros.
Why you persist in trying to suggest Fedora should turn into something
it doesn't want to be, and extremely unlikely to ever be, is beyond me.
Chris
I think he's testing Einstein's theory that given enough attempts,
anything is possible.
--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )
6:30 p.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Chris Jones wrote:
>
> Anti-septic hurts, but in the long run it helps cure problems.
They said that about blood-letting too.
Digressing slightly, but blood-letting is sometimes useful
(though not as widely useful as some 18th C physicians
thought).
--
imalone
11:50 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 14:40 +0000, Ian Malone wrote:
On 31/01/2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
> following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
> extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
> random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
> this doesn't work that well.
>
Well, one could Google for the answer, look at the unofficial
FAQs or read the responses on the mailing list and try to
form a sensible assessment of the advice being given.
> > Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm surprised there's
> > anything left of it.
>
> Does the truth hurt? What's the problem with repeating it?
Mainly that it got boring a while back.
> I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
> project site about
[...]
"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software."
I think you might agree that it would be more correct to state:
"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software to be beta tested by it's advanced
community of experienced users." Plus add this caveat:
"It is not suggested for dweebs nor the intellectually challenged." ;)
THAT would be more honest. I would add that while some may dissent at
times, including myself, that should not be confused with disloyalty.
Edward R Morrow said to Senator McCarthy during the Senate hearings,
when McCarthy would label anyone that disagreed with him a Communist,
"Do not confuse my dissent with disloyalty, Sir."
<smiles wistfully> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
12:13 a.m.
Ric Moore wrote:
>
>> I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
>> project site about
> [...]
>
> "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
> free and open source software."
I think you might agree that it would be more correct to state:
"Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
free and open source software to be beta tested by it's advanced
community of experienced users." Plus add this caveat:
"It is not suggested for dweebs nor the intellectually challenged." ;)
And add a reminder that the pioneers are usually the people lying face
down in the mud with arrows in their backs...
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
9:26 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 00:13 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Ric Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the
>>> project site about
>> [...]
>>
>> "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
>> free and open source software."
>
> I think you might agree that it would be more correct to state:
>
> "Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that showcases the latest in
> free and open source software to be beta tested by it's advanced
> community of experienced users." Plus add this caveat:
> "It is not suggested for dweebs nor the intellectually challenged." ;)
And add a reminder that the pioneers are usually the people lying face
down in the mud with arrows in their backs...
Damn near blew iced-tea out my nose!
HA! I'm stealing that one. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
10:18 a.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 07:55 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Ian Malone wrote:
>> Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
>> be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
>
> And, as always, he was told ages ago the way to get Nvidia working
> on Fedora and chose to ignore it until he stumbled onto it by trial
> and error.
He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
this doesn't work that well.
----
agreed - and he should have been around long enough to figure out that
he needed to apply a filter to those giving him advice. Let's not
forget, the support you get from a list such as this is worth the price
you pay, hopefully a bit more but there are no guarantees.
Craig
11:34 p.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 07:55 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Ian Malone wrote:
>> Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
>> be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules.
>
> And, as always, he was told ages ago the way to get Nvidia working
> on Fedora and chose to ignore it until he stumbled onto it by trial
> and error.
He was told different and conflicting ways by different people and
following different sets of advice broke things. Why should an
extremely common user requirement have to be satisfied by following some
random other user's advice from a mail list? As we can see by example,
this doesn't work that well.
> I didn't follow his sound problems closely but they
> appeared to be with pulseaudio, which was designed to fix a long-
> standing sound problem, is not a kernel issue and, in any case, can
> be removed and F8 run without it.
He tried to remove 'pulseaudio' instead of the obscure package name that
you actually do have to remove and it damaged his system.
> Anyway, we've heard this axe ground so often I'm surprised there's
> anything left of it.
Does the truth hurt? What's the problem with repeating it? I'd like to
see something resembling truth-in-advertising on the project site about
the expected user experience for the very common situations where a
vendor driver works better than the stock one or is needed to work at
all, the user wants to run java, VMware or a number of other 3rd party
programs, or the user expects to keep running without re-installing for
any length of time.
I had suggested off-list that he try the nVidia supplied driver. Then he
raved about how well it worked on the list. My guess is that he dinked
with it and it broke. I have no problem with it at all and I happen to
prefer it, for my own uses.
I just set up an old Beta Max for my 75 year old Uncle. He had some
original WWII footage on Beta and wanted to watch them. I warned him,
don't fsck with it! Sure enough, two days later he'd push the damn
buttons anyway. Now, it won't play at all. Think I jumped up to fix it?
Hell, nah. I'm letting him sweat. Big time. Same thing.
Hopefully he'll keep his fingers out of it the next time I fix it.
<smirks> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
10:16 a.m.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 00:37 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>> But that has nothing to do with my point about enabling the user
to
>>>>>> install additional software which is why I have an operating
system in
>>>>>> the first place.
>>>>> Everyone here knows the deal with Fedora. They don't promote non
OSS
>>>>> software for partly legal and (in my opinion, might be wrong)
partly
>>>>> philosophical reasons against closed source.
>>>> My point has nothing to do with promoting anything or whether the
>>>> additional software meets your religious beliefs or not. It is
strictly
>>>> about providing a user with a platform that is not limited by design or
>>>> its inability to provide stable interfaces.
>>> You say limit by design, I say do not support. Limit by design would
>>> be to hard code repos into yum. Not support would be to not provide
>>> all repos in yum by default.
>> OK, I'll take your "do not support" and move on to
"intentionally break"
>> in every case where something that worked in one version does not work
>> in the next or after an update. From the perspective of a person who
>> just wants to run some programs it's all the same when they don't work.
>
> Got any examples of that?
Since this is Karl's thread, his problems with Nvidia and sound should
be famous by now and apply to any kernel modules. But every fedora
version has required new patches to VMware that you have to track down,
firewire has had about 50/50 odds of working, anything that knew device
names would break from one version to the next, CIPE hasn't worked since
FC1... What other OS forces you to go though these contortions
continuously just to continue getting security fixes for the bugs it ships?
----
IIRC, cipe hasn't worked since 2.6 kernel because 2.6 kernel dropped the
extensions that cipe relied upon. Not a Fedora issue.
As for Karl's issue with pulseaudio, it stems from the his requirement
of Skype which has their own timetable for releases.
As for Karl's issue with nVidia...it just took him longer than most to
get the livna packages installed.
The fact that Fedora adopts some of the edge technologies that create
some incompatibilities is proof that it is not the Linux distribution
that suits everyone - no big deal there.
Craig
11:39 a.m.
On 31/01/2008, Craig White <craig(a)tobyhouse.com> wrote:
As for Karl's issue with pulseaudio, it stems from the his requirement
of Skype which has their own timetable for releases.
Not to start another pulseaudio thread, but I'm still wondering
why it should work for some people and not others, provided
the underlying ALSA drivers work (maybe that's a tall order).
F8, Skype works fine for me with PA, both on the laptop's
built-in mic/speakers and a USB handset. Rhythmbox,
mplayer and xine work. But clearly they don't for others,
who /are/ able to get sound if they take PA out, very odd.
(Realplayer is the one app I've found that doesn't like it,
but it seems to be trying to issue some hardware command
to ALSA. Hmm, just had a thought about that...)
--
imalone
10:24 a.m.
John Summerfield wrote:
Many years ago, RH used to ship CDE, maybe around RHL 4.x.
Unfortunately, CDE had a security problem. CDE is closed software. RH
takes security more seriously than its supplier did. RH could not get a
fix in a suitable timeframe.
RH immediately withdrew support, suggested people did not use it, and
offered paying customers a credit against their next purchase.
RH was a new company then; anyone who's still around from then is likely
senior management now.
Whatever their beliefs then, I'm sure that that experienced moved them a
a few points towards "open source and only open source."
I think this puts a very unwarranted spin on open vs. closed source
software. In fact if you examine what was shipped in RH4.x you'd find
glaring security issues in just about _every_ package and the ones that
didn't have their own inherited exploitable environment overflows, etc.
from the libraries. That wasn't particularly RedHat's fault, it was
just that no one expected the bad guys to read the source code before RH
shipped a CD that would install on anyone's PC. But fast forward to
RH6.x and you'd still find exploited vulnerabilities in bind, sendmail,
the ftp programs, smtpd, samba, and so on. You can't make a blanket
claim that bugs are going to be fixed just because someone who could fix
them has the source. As I recall, the one in smtpd got fixed just about
everywhere at the same time, closed and open versions. I haven't
followd CDE but I'd assume that if it is still used, its known
exploitable bugs have been fixed too, RedHat's grandstanding about the
issue while still shipping other bugs notwithstanding.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gamil.com
3:24 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Le 30.01.2008 19:21, Robert P. J. Day a écrit :
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
... snip ...
> Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off the Ubuntu
> crowd...?
And I have just put some procmail rules to send K.L.'s mails to hell!:
:0 H
*^From (.*larsen|.*k5di)
$HOME/mail/spam
:0 B
*.*larsen
$HOME/mail/spam
Keep them! He may come back.
- --
François Patte
UFR de mathématiques et informatique
Université Paris Descartes
45, rue des Saints Pères
F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
Tél. +33 (0)1 44 55 35 61
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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3:29 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora] Re: Good bye
François Patte wrote:
And I have just put some procmail rules to send K.L.'s mails to
hell!:
I wouldn't want to be you when the devil comes knocking on your door
for doing that ... :)
--
W | It's not a bug - it's an undocumented feature.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley M. Kirchner <mailto:ashley@pcraft.com> . 303.442.6410 x130
IT Director / SysAdmin / Websmith . 800.441.3873 x130
Photo Craft Imaging . 3550 Arapahoe Ave. #6
http://www.pcraft.com ..... . . . Boulder, CO 80303, U.S.A.
6:17 p.m.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 01:21:08PM -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
i was going to take the high road but ... oh, what the hell.
I just have two observations; one specific to Karl, a second to Linux
in general:
o Despite everything, some people are going to miss him just because he
was a nucleation point for...stuff. Love or hate it, but.
o I've worked on Unix since around 1980, Linux since around 1994.
Different distros, different details, but once you get used to
dealing with the various Unix/Linux distros, who cares what they
change; it's all variations on a theme. I don't have a problem
dealing with multiple distros and platforms.
Cheers,
--
Dave Ihnat
President, DMINET Consulting, Inc.
dihnat(a)dminet.com
12:45 p.m.
--- "Christopher A. Williams" <fedoralists(a)cawllc.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 12:31 -0500, Terry Polzin
wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 January 2008 11:14:36 Karl Larsen
wrote:
> > I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and
started playing with it. I
> > signed up for their technical list and have
talked with some very smart
> > people. Right now I am getting my little tv
camera working with Skype. I
> > just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
> >
> > These guys are not IT people for a company,
they are Ubuntu users.
> > We get along just fine. I think the entire
Fedora setup is bad. You must
> > like to fix your operating system to fit in.
Change is the name of the
> > game.
> >
> > Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways
Fedora will never
> > understand. Good Bye.
> IMHO Ubuntu is the distro that deserves Karl and
the distro that Karl needs.
>
> All of us on this list have wasted too much time
and effort on him and his
> issues.
Anyone care to wager how long before he pisses off
the Ubuntu crowd...?
I know quite a few Ubuntu guys. A couple are friends
and co-workers.
Most are just pro-Ubuntu as opposed to anti-Fedora.
Just like most
people here are pro-Fedora as opposed to
Anti-Ubuntu. I'd say it was
more just a matter of time...
Cheers,
Chris
--
====================================================
In theory there is no difference between theory and
practice.
In practice there is.
--Yogi Berra
--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe:
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
This will make many wonder which one/ones threw the
straw that broke the camel's back
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_that_broke_the_camel%27s_back
Regards,
Antonio
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
12:01 p.m.
Karl Larsen wrote:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users. We
get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand. Good Bye.
Karl
You get along just fine now. And I"m sure you did while on this list
early. It's less about 'getting along' and more about learning as you
go. Too many times this has been demonstrated that you either won't or
can't. I'm sure they'll be the same way after a while.
However, I wish you luck. Ubuntu isn't my favorite distro. But it works
for non-technical people who don't want to have to learn the guts of the
thing, which is why my mom uses it.
--
Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt -- Caius Julius Caesar
Mark Haney
Sr. Systems Administrator
ERC Broadband
(828) 350-2415
Call (866) ERC-7110 for after hours support
12:34 p.m.
Karl Larsen wrote:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people.
The nice thing about Ubuntu is that you don't need to know a lot to
use it. The problem with Ubuntu is that nothing is in the 'standard'
places so you can fix things.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We
get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well now I get to ignore Karl on that list instead of this one.
I actually wish Karl the best of luck.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand. Good Bye.
... Dispatch tech replace user!
The problem with the ignorant is that they never know any better.
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com
http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog
Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
5:01 p.m.
Neil Cherry wrote:
Karl Larsen wrote:
> I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
> signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very
> smart people.
The nice thing about Ubuntu is that you don't need to know a lot to
use it. The problem with Ubuntu is that nothing is in the 'standard'
places so you can fix things.
I don't understand that. I think "standard" needs some definition.
Generally, configuration files are approximately where package creators
envisioned and work as they describe,
When I moved to Debian from RHL some years ago, what struck me was how
similar it is to RHL and its successors. Arguably more similar than *SUSE.
--
Cheers
John
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6:59 p.m.
John Summerfield wrote:
Neil Cherry wrote:
> Karl Larsen wrote:
>> I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
>> signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very
>> smart people.
>
> The nice thing about Ubuntu is that you don't need to know a lot to
> use it. The problem with Ubuntu is that nothing is in the 'standard'
> places so you can fix things.
I don't understand that. I think "standard" needs some definition.
That 'standard' has been some trouble but an example is ifcfg-eth0.
Can't find it on Ubuntu. Using CPAN is quite a pain to do (I found
I was missing one small library, then I could install). I'm more of
a SYS-V guy having grown up with AT&T Unix. I like the Linux Standard
Base. I know there are differences between Debian based systems
and Red Hat based systems. I managed to (easily) get around the su
problem.
Generally, configuration files are approximately where package
creators
envisioned and work as they describe,
But those that follow the LSB make things easier for folks. The one
thing that makes things interesting still is whether to put things
in /opt or in /usr/local. I'm an old timer so I tend to put things
in /usr/local.
--
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Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
5:48 p.m.
On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 19:59 -0500, Neil Cherry wrote:
John Summerfield wrote:
> Neil Cherry wrote:
>> Karl Larsen wrote:
>>> I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
>>> signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very
>>> smart people.
>>
>> The nice thing about Ubuntu is that you don't need to know a lot to
>> use it. The problem with Ubuntu is that nothing is in the 'standard'
>> places so you can fix things.
>
>
> I don't understand that. I think "standard" needs some definition.
That 'standard' has been some trouble but an example is ifcfg-eth0.
Can't find it on Ubuntu. Using CPAN is quite a pain to do (I found
I was missing one small library, then I could install). I'm more of
a SYS-V guy having grown up with AT&T Unix. I like the Linux Standard
Base. I know there are differences between Debian based systems
and Red Hat based systems. I managed to (easily) get around the su
problem.
> Generally, configuration files are approximately where package creators
> envisioned and work as they describe,
But those that follow the LSB make things easier for folks. The one
thing that makes things interesting still is whether to put things
in /opt or in /usr/local. I'm an old timer so I tend to put things
in /usr/local.
I never saw the use of /opt until I switched from RedHat to Caldera, way
back when. Their thinking was it was better to have two separate
partitions (/usr and /opt) to reduce the likelihood of things getting
mashed up during an upgrade. /usr gets written to, all over the place,
while /opt would be umounted, safely out of the way. Made sense to me.
Owell, just my 2 cents. Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
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================================================
2:32 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
Intentionally left Blank
...dex
8:44 a.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
3:44 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
Terry Polzin wrote:
On Thursday 31 January 2008 09:44:48 Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
>
Have you got your towel?
NICE! I can't get help with the problem that FC6,7,8 has with an ASUS
board, but this stupid thread gets 200 posts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL NICE LIST!
3:59 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 16:44 -0500, Randy Ramsdell wrote:
Terry Polzin wrote:
> On Thursday 31 January 2008 09:44:48 Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>
>> I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
>>
>
> Have you got your towel?
>
NICE! I can't get help with the problem that FC6,7,8 has with an ASUS
board, but this stupid thread gets 200 posts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL NICE LIST!
I, for one, don't recall seeing your post on ASUS mobos. Perhaps I
missed it.
While I haven't futzed with F6, 7 or 8 on Asus in a while, I'll try to
help. What specifically is going wrong? And try to be as specific as
you can...there's a lot of Asus variants out there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Principal Engineer rstevens(a)internap.com -
- CDN Systems, Internap, Inc. http://www.internap.com -
- -
- If Bill Gates got a dime for every time Windows crashes... -
- ...oh, wait. He does. THAT explains it! -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
Rick Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 16:44 -0500, Randy Ramsdell wrote:
> Terry Polzin wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 31 January 2008 09:44:48 Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
>>>
>>>
>> Have you got your towel?
>>
>>
> NICE! I can't get help with the problem that FC6,7,8 has with an ASUS
> board, but this stupid thread gets 200 posts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL NICE LIST!
>
I, for one, don't recall seeing your post on ASUS mobos. Perhaps I
missed it.
While I haven't futzed with F6, 7 or 8 on Asus in a while, I'll try to
help. What specifically is going wrong? And try to be as specific as
you can...there's a lot of Asus variants out there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Principal Engineer rstevens(a)internap.com -
- CDN Systems, Internap, Inc. http://www.internap.com -
- -
- If Bill Gates got a dime for every time Windows crashes... -
- ...oh, wait. He does. THAT explains it! -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey thanks.
I gave up on this issue after the 3rd new release wouldn't install and
just use the xp disk for now . Actually, I filed the bug report that was
fixed in FC5, but new release fscked this up. I posted questions after
the 7,8 release I think. So my post is just a rant because I was not
happy about having to stop using FC and then not getting much help here.
Thank you anyway
4:31 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 17:22 -0500, Randy Ramsdell wrote:
Rick Stevens wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 16:44 -0500, Randy Ramsdell wrote:
>
>> Terry Polzin wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday 31 January 2008 09:44:48 Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Have you got your towel?
>>>
>>>
>> NICE! I can't get help with the problem that FC6,7,8 has with an ASUS
>> board, but this stupid thread gets 200 posts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL NICE LIST!
>>
>
> I, for one, don't recall seeing your post on ASUS mobos. Perhaps I
> missed it.
>
> While I haven't futzed with F6, 7 or 8 on Asus in a while, I'll try to
> help. What specifically is going wrong? And try to be as specific as
> you can...there's a lot of Asus variants out there.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Rick Stevens, Principal Engineer rstevens(a)internap.com -
> - CDN Systems, Internap, Inc. http://www.internap.com -
> - -
> - If Bill Gates got a dime for every time Windows crashes... -
> - ...oh, wait. He does. THAT explains it! -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Hey thanks.
I gave up on this issue after the 3rd new release wouldn't install and
just use the xp disk for now . Actually, I filed the bug report that was
fixed in FC5, but new release fscked this up. I posted questions after
the 7,8 release I think. So my post is just a rant because I was not
happy about having to stop using FC and then not getting much help here.
Well, like I said, I'll help if I can and you can tell me what you're
seeing as going wrong. The most common problems were on Asus SMP mobos
with multiple processors.
If you want to pursue this, perhaps we can do it off list or start a
fresh thread as we're all hoping this one will die.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Principal Engineer rstevens(a)internap.com -
- CDN Systems, Internap, Inc. http://www.internap.com -
- -
- Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine. -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
While I haven't futzed with F6, 7 or 8 on Asus in a while,
I'll try to
help. What specifically is going wrong? And try to be as specific as
you can...there's a lot of Asus variants out there.
Can I suggest I new thread. This one is perverse enough as it is...
4:27 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Jan 31, 2008 3:59 PM, Rick Stevens <rstevens(a)internap.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 16:44 -0500, Randy Ramsdell wrote:
> Terry Polzin wrote:
> > On Thursday 31 January 2008 09:44:48 Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> >
> >> I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
> >>
> >
> > Have you got your towel?
> >
>
> NICE! I can't get help with the problem that FC6,7,8 has with an ASUS
> board, but this stupid thread gets 200 posts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL NICE
LIST!
I, for one, don't recall seeing your post on ASUS mobos. Perhaps I
missed it.
While I haven't futzed with F6, 7 or 8 on Asus in a while, I'll try to
help. What specifically is going wrong? And try to be as specific as
you can...there's a lot of Asus variants out there.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Principal Engineer rstevens(a)internap.com -
- CDN Systems, Internap, Inc. http://www.internap.com -
- -
- If Bill Gates got a dime for every time Windows crashes... -
- ...oh, wait. He does. THAT explains it! -
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yup, I've been running AMD ASUS boards for years now and haven't had any
problems. Starting running linux with FC6 and had run fine in both F7 and 8
as well.
Richard
2:59 a.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 10:19 -0500, Terry Polzin wrote:
On Thursday 31 January 2008 09:44:48 Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
> I see someone reads Douglas Adams.
Have you got your towel?
Wouldn't be without one. Or the salty cocktail snacks. My diabetes
precludes the beer though. :( Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
3:08 a.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 03:59 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
Wouldn't be without one. Or the salty cocktail snacks. My
diabetes
precludes the beer though. :( Ric
Does it preclude Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters? :-P
--
Peter Gordon (codergeek42)
GnuPG Public Key ID: 0xFFC19479 / Fingerprint:
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11:43 p.m.
New subject: Good bye - So long and thanks for all the fish.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 01:08 -0800, Peter Gordon wrote:
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 03:59 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
> Wouldn't be without one. Or the salty cocktail snacks. My diabetes
> precludes the beer though. :( Ric
Does it preclude Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters? :-P
Ha! After the "Res has a potty mouth" thread, I could use one! In a tall
frosty glass with a taller straw. Just bang my head in with a slice of
lemon. I could use that. I wonder how much insulin I would have to
take?? Probably ALOT! Have you seen the newer version of Hitchhikers? I
wish they'd finish the trilogy. Heck, it's 12:42 and I think I'll just
pop off and fix a little dram of something amber colored, so I'll go to
sleep "quicker". Yeah, that's the ticket! <grins> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
3:46 p.m.
Karl Larsen wrote:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
I used Kubuntu and Fedora + KDE for a time,
and found there was very little difference between them,
or the people using them.
In fact I couldn't tell which was running without saying "uname -a"
or something like that.
I settled on Fedora just because I find it easier to use the same system
on all machines I own.
I'm quite sure Karl will have exactly the same kind of problems
under Ubuntu that he used to have under Fedora.
--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
1:56 p.m.
Karl is already becoming disenchanted w/ ubuntu
this is from a post where he is trying to install google earth (which
has always easily installed form me in ubuntu)
" I was hoping Ubuntu was different. But it seems to have the same
gotcha's as all versions"
-bazooka
On Jan 30, 2008 8:14 AM, Karl Larsen <k5di(a)zianet.com> wrote:
I did a temporary setup of Ubuntu and started playing with it. I
signed up for their technical list and have talked with some very smart
people. Right now I am getting my little tv camera working with Skype. I
just talked to another Ham in GA on PSK31.
These guys are not IT people for a company, they are Ubuntu users.
We get along just fine. I think the entire Fedora setup is bad. You must
like to fix your operating system to fit in. Change is the name of the
game.
Well Ubuntu has arrived. It works in ways Fedora will never
understand. Good Bye.
Karl
--
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Linux User
#450462 http://counter.li.org.
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2 p.m.
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008, Bazooka Joe wrote:
Karl is already becoming disenchanted w/ ubuntu
this is from a post where he is trying to install google earth (which
has always easily installed form me in ubuntu)
" I was hoping Ubuntu was different. But it seems to have the same
gotcha's as all versions"
-bazooka
that was cruel. fair, but cruel. :-)
rday
--
========================================================================
Robert P. J. Day
Linux Consulting, Training and Annoying Kernel Pedantry
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
Home page: http://crashcourse.ca
Fedora Cookbook: http://crashcourse.ca/wiki/index.php/Fedora_Cookbook
========================================================================
9:39 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 15:00 -0500, Robert P. J. Day wrote:
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008, Bazooka Joe wrote:
> Karl is already becoming disenchanted w/ ubuntu
>
> this is from a post where he is trying to install google earth (which
> has always easily installed form me in ubuntu)
>
> " I was hoping Ubuntu was different. But it seems to have the same
> gotcha's as all versions"
>
>
> -bazooka
that was cruel. fair, but cruel. :-)
Ha! I think that is a fair assessment of this knuckle-dragging crowd
here ...hardly down from the trees! "fair, but cruel." :-)
Oik! Oik! <chatters> Ric
--
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too
================================================
5927
days inactive
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161 comments
51 participants
participants (51)
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tom -
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