Good evening everybody,
I've unluckily several points and issues, I'm trying to get solved for even for a longer time now (depending on the point on my list), but nobody in and around the Fedora Project seems or don't want to care about that. I am also annoyed, that I have to write such an e-mail, but the following really is, what Fedora makes sucking for me.
Ah, and now first of all to the guys who will surely answer "use Ubuntu", "choose another distribution", "you're sucking as well" or similar: Go, run and die in a fire - immediately! I know, that this e-mail will make me the bogeyman for many of you, but that hopefully and luckily moves out Thorsten for a short time of his usual position while taking the seat myself... ;-)
Well, we had the intrusion into the servers of the Fedora Project. That is now nearly 4 months ago. I remember to the words of our dear Fedora Project leader, who made us believing with the sentence "We will continue to keep the Fedora community notified of any updates." - but nothing happend after that. We all are still waiting for final report about the intrusion into the servers of the Fedora Project! Yes, we can: Open Source, but unluckily no Open Communication! Even the communication during the intrusion time was worse, e-mails to the Infrastructure team and to our Fedora Project leader got not really answered (or just when reasking and bugging) when asking for the issue and details even when it was mostly clear, that we're no longer really men about ourself - the intrusion.
Our German translation is only quantitative, not qualitative. And the worse thing is, the team leader of the German translation team finds the current position and its current status okay. That's wrong and never should happen. If a German person is not able to understand the context of a translated sentence, the phrase should not be commited. Many people are even not re- reading the tsentence whether it has any meaning after the translation. But our team leader says, quantitative translation is okay. Ugly grammar and spelling issues are another thing; seems too much to re-read or to use a spellchecker before commiting - our teamleader says, that everything must fast go to upstream...great! I now know lots of German speaking people (in their mother tongue), which use Fedora only in English - including myself - to avoid the must of reading that horrible German. Surely, we can fix that, but if always people are working against, that does not help. Unluckily, language translations don't make it that often into Fedora updates during the lifetime of a Fedora release. So mostly, a broken translation is kept there for the whole release. But it's okay to be only quantitative and not qualitative, our team leader of the German translation project prays.
Oh, we've the Live CD for a long time now. Did anybody use that medium on a slower, older computer? Surely not. Otherwise you would have noticed, that the Live CD is very slow there. The USB stick/variant may be fast, but the CD which we're now promoting at our download page better and more that the installation DVD, is IMHO not a good store sign as it is just slow. It even has not a localisation - folks, not the whole world is speaking english, just there is America on the worldmap! I know people from fairs, which are really frusted by their first try with a Live CD as it was just English. Yes, we maybe can create a spin, but these ones, we cannot offer on the FTP and HTTP mirrors, because Fedora is already too big. On the other hand, the issue of a non-US keyboard layout when trying to generate a localized version of the Live medium is still not fixed. There were some tries to solve that on LinuxTag 2008, but as far as I know, afterwards nobody again cared about and it went down. Remembering, that promoting our so cool Live CDs does not help in areas where the Internet is slow and old, I'm doing hereby, too. I don't want to remember, that the Fedora 8 Live media even killed crypted swap partitions...really a nice feature. By the way, does it do that still?
Yeah, Anaconda got a bigger rewrite for Fedora 10 and took care of the old and often claimed issue, that the user needs to know the URL of a mirror in order to install Fedora via netinstall. But now, the screen got completely ripped out or is (if it really still exists, which I don't believe) too good hidden somewhere. Instead of that, somebody - that must have been an American - made the "repo=" option for the command line prompt if somebody wants to specify a local mirror. Urgs! At that point, no non-US keyboard layout is loaded! I now have to type something like "repoßhttpö--my.local- mirror-fedora-something-" or so on my non-US keyboard. Folks, the worldmap not only has American people with a US keyboard layout out there, even if some people think so. Even the "repo=xxx" is worse documented, but yes, who cares? Just me as it seems somehow...
In order to support the RPM Fusion (former Livna) project, I tried to install the mirrormanager serverlist on a RHEL 4 with python 2.3 and having suexec in httpd enabled - and poorly failed. Mirrormanager is worse up to not documented at all and only focussed to RHEL 5+. So for a not really mirrormanager specific person it is nearly impossible to run mirrormanager serverlist in a secured/hardend environment out of the box without taking much action. Luckily I got support for several python 2.3 specific issues by a mirror admin and by the webteam leader - unluckily not so much help by the developer of mirrormanager who caused the stuff...I'm still getting a zombie process after a request by the *.wsgi which is surely no feature.
Pushing packages into Fedora still takes ages in form of days or weeks. And this unluckily and especially also for security updates. The reason for this seems to be Bodhi, as the updates are usually happening very fast on EPEL which hasn't Bodhi. For EPEL it normally just takes hours, for Fedora mostly multiple days up to a week. I know, what I'm talking about here, I am co-maintaining phpMyAdmin which has more holes that a swiss cheese; the EPEL people know very well, what I'm talking about, too. I also had a lot of other security updates for other packages during 2008 and EPEL is always faster there, why Fedora is so slow? There must be a real reason, why we do not get rid of this for a long time now...and I would like to see this same good or even well in Fedora as in EPEL - or do we have to kill bodhi first?
Hmmm, the "Merge Reviews" that somewhere have been declared as blockers for Fedora 7 (!) are still not done. It AFAIK was said somewhen, that not reviewed packages are getting removed from Fedora. This did not happen for anything, yet. The "Merge Reviews" are sometimes also blocked by Red Hat employees for very base/core packages by just refusing the Fedora Packaging guidelines, because it's the packager of the package. This can't be case! The Red Hat people have to follow the Fedora packaging guidelines and rules same as the Fedora folks - without any exception! If you would like to know which packages and people I'm talking about, have a look to Bugzilla and search for the bug reports I'm watching via Cc - there are lots of examples out there...without wanting to blame somebody special here on the list. But this has to be solved, the reviews need to be done, and the Red Hat people sitting on some base/core packages, must follow the Fedora rules same and without any refusing as they currently do. BTW, why is nobody controlling the success of the "Merge Reviews"? Shouldn't somebody watch this and tell us all the progress inside of e.g. the weekly Fedora newsletter or so?
Oh, did I mention, that RPM 4.6, our dear big change in RPM at Fedora for years now is still buggy and so? When reading the article about a review of Fedora 10 by pro-linux.de (http://www.pro-linux.de/berichte/fedora10.html), I had to notice, that our dear rpm.org developers still did not get rid of the "hanging rpm" now must be solved by killing the RPM processes, removing the /var/lib/rpm/__* and rebuilding the rpmdb. Putting the (now cheap) oil into the fire would be a solution: rpm5.org solved the above mentioned very annoying issue already years ago. But yes I know, some yum developing and supporting individuals don't like the rpm5.org project by other individuals even not honoring their work, but even not backporting the fixes, developed there to solve old problems. I don't know of any "feature" in rpm.org, that is not already in rpm5.org; why do we put double efforts with so much delay in rpm.org when rpm5.org already has done the work? And before I know hear some derogatives about rpm5.org people: You're always getting the echo for what you did, but unluckily you often do not always remember to what you did or say before - and that AFAIK applies to all rpm5.org people related personal issues. And if we are now RPM; are there advantages of having some kinds of an APT API?
PackageKit, another broken software which is in a pre-bleeding edge state I would say. PackageKit is resizing windows during installation or updating of packages; it's resizing and thus hopping the window if I e.g. select a package or if I click around inside of the application. That's something, which proves, that there is no usability for end users yet. That's IMHO more worse than alpha - but we're shipping it with releases, yay. And the related GNOME tray utility is also slow and usually is behind the current action...that's packagekitd, yes? One of these utilities also often blocks the usage of yum with saying, that another application currently holds the lock. Why are we locking something when not performing a writing action on the RPM database? That seems to be mis-engineered very well. Independent of that, PackageKit is somehow slow, has issues that it doesn't understand always where it is or whether an action is already completed. Oh and it kills my Firefox nicely during package updating, well-well done. Some more experiences about the broken-ness are mentioned in the review of Fedora 10 on pro-linux.de (http://www.pro-linux.de/berichte/fedora10.html). Why do we ship such software? Only because we're bleeding edge and want to beat the guys of Ubuntu?
When talking about PackageKit, DBUS is another issue. The recent DBUS pkg update broke PackageKit stuff - thanks to our cool QA. And clever as we are, we did not revoke the update and we also did not push a fixed package really immediately out after to solve this. I know, that many of the desktop people actually love DBUS, but it is horrible stuff, which can break down much things with lacking QA like in this case. Did you desktop people ever think about, that DBUS is not the perfect choice for a server system and Fedora is some kind of preview of RHEL? Yes, Fedora is not the playground of Red Hat, but on the other hand, Fedora is - why else is Red Hat putting efforts into Fedora if they wouldn't benefit? I really can only hope here, that Red Hat removes much of the DBUS breakage and dumbness for the next RHEL release and that less DBUS linked packages are making it into there...
And as we're cool, we need a daemon for everything: packagekitd, dbusd, hal daemon, mcstransd, setroubleshootd, yum-updatesd - yay. And nearly every of this daemons is written in the memory consuming python and has nice memory leaks or other breakdown bugs. mcstransd is still slower for me (even after the speedup somebody of the SELinux guys did) as previous implementation without the daemon. But yes, we need daemons; restorecond would now be just another example. I think, there's much more which can be solved without a daemon and at least without memory-wasting worse written python. I'm aware, that python is the Red Hat internal defacto default and that scripting is much more faster rather coding low-level C. But lets waste ressources as e.g. kerneloops daemon does which always consumes a bit of CPU and thus not increases the consuming of energy in a positive way. But hey, let's create another daemon to monitor where we're wasting and leaking memory...
Plymouth is nice - sometimes. Why did we put so much effort into that? It does not work with many graphic cards and it doesn't make things really faster for me. You also forgot to put a message somewhere, that hitting ESC can abort that thing and showing the regular messages instead. But this is what is "usability" called, when putting such an information not onto the screen. Maybe plymouth is faster as previous stuff, possible. But compared with the work of Arjan van de Ven, Linux developer at Intel and author of PowerTOP, it's still slow. He's booting up an Asus EeePC within 5 seconds; with plymouth it anyway takes a multiple of that for me. But yes, plymouth looks nice to end users and we like to waste time for that.
When already being on booting: Does somebody remember to the Ubuntu stuff we really needed some releases ago? I'm talking about upstart, the event driven/based init system we've been hot to. And now? We're using the compat mode and that's it. Everything else uses just the same compatibility mode and AFAIK nothing in Fedora uses the "advantages" of upstart. But yes, we are bleeding edge with that. Did it make sense? No. But we wanted it. Okay. Why the hell did we need a event driven/based init system so much, if we still are not using any features of it and replacing the old init skeleton by the new things? I thought, we're bleeding edge? Looks like we only need to have the latest sharp razor, but we're never using it for cutting. Is upstream of upstart still alive? And is there any forward development some where in the world?
Fedora EMEA e.V. also seems to be a mostly dead tree. Of course we have founded the association as legal vehicle. But it would be nice to see where my money, my membership fee, the 128 Euro per year are spent to. I now could assume, that the money is just collected and nothing happens or some guys of the board are buying and eating ice cream with, but I really hope that's not true. Fedora EMEA e.V. really needs to communicate a bit more to its members what they're doing and how the money is handled. Organisation is lacking much transparency and about their activities. AFAIK, a mailing list for the members of Fedora EMEA e.V. was created, I think it never was used yet. 128 Euro per year is IMHO too much for the current level of what seems to happen with the money. And for that money I could support the Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) with multiple membership fees per year. And sorry, just one cool bathrobe isn't a good reason for spending 128 Euro away per year. Without enough transparency and communication, it's like throwing the money out of the window of my room.
If you're reading this, you've hopefully read all I wrote above. The main issue is, that all of the issues are known (if you try to tell me something else you're either blind and deaf-mute or you don't care about Fedora that much) - to their leader/owner and to others inside of the Fedora Project. But nobody really follows, is having a look to these issues and problems or even takes care of it...why? I think, this should be the job of the Fedora Project leader, shouldn't it? I don't want to blame neither Paul nor Max in this e-mail, I think everybody of us needs to be more sensitive to issues around the Fedora Project and needs to take more care before developing or forking something. And things exist, we don't need to re-invent always the wheel just because it's cool and bleeding edge. More work to get patches to upstream and so would avoid some of the pseudo-forks on Fedora Hosted as well. We definately need Open Communication, not only Open Source. But as it seems, even Fedora Talk didn't help that until now. So maybe the "f" of Free spech got lost somewhere in the latest slogan redesign?
Oh...I'm really sorry now, that I used the phrase "bleeding edge" together with "Fedora" and that I called "Fedora" as "bleeding edge". I already got dispraised multiple times by individuals (eg. as part of the Fedora website team), that I think, Fedora is bleeding edge. If you've really read all of my irony, frustration, comments and suggestions above, you should have to agree with me, that Fedora is "bleeding edge". Fedora is far away from stable, it's a sharp razor with many edges where somebody can be easily cut with - and that's why we mostly like it.
My points above are what Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora! At least I'm thinking that. Maybe you're thinking about my e-mail before replying. I would also like to hear comments (even private ones) by the affected parts of the Fedora Project. Thanks for taking the time.
Greetings, Robert
On Tue, 09 Dec 2008, Robert Scheck wrote:
My points above are what Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora! At least I'm thinking that.
Oh...and to be clear, I currently do not have any plans to leave Fedora. It's still my favourite Linux distribution :) And I really would like to see the things getting better...thus such an e-mail.
Greetings, Robert
Robert Scheck schrieb:
Our German translation is only quantitative, not qualitative. And the
worse
thing is, the team leader of the German translation team finds the current position and its current status okay. That's wrong and never should happen.
Ich kann mich an diese eine IRC-Unterhaltung erinnern, jedoch habe ich keine Logs (die hast Du sicher noch...) und so kann ich den exakten Wortlaut nicht wiedergeben. Habe ich nicht eher gesagt, dass sich am momentanen Stand nur wenig ändern lässt? Oder habe ich dem wirklich zu gestimmt?
If a German person is not able to understand the context of a translated sentence, the phrase should not be commited. Many people are even not re- reading the tsentence whether it has any meaning after the translation. But our team leader says, quantitative translation is okay. Ugly grammar and spelling issues are another thing; seems too much to re-read or to use a spellchecker before commiting - our teamleader says, that everything must fast go to upstream...great!
Qualitätssicherung ist ein Problem, dass habe ich nicht in Abrede gestellt. Du weisst wohl auch, wie gross das Team der aktiven Übersetzer ist. An das "fast" so in diesem Zusammenhang mit upstream kann ich mich nicht erinnern. Ich habe wohl eher daran gedacht, dass wenn es mal übersetzt ist, resp. in einer Rohfassung vorliegt, die Chance grösser sind, dass es auch in einer kürzeren Zeit einen gewisse Qualität erreicht.
I now know lots of German speaking people (in their mother tongue), which use Fedora only in English - including myself - to avoid the must of reading that horrible German. Surely, we can fix that, but if always people are working against, that does not help.
Wenn es so schlimm ist, wo sind die Bugreport, es müssten ja unglaublich viele sein. In der Zeit von Fedora 9 bis 10 waren es sicher nicht mehr als fünf. Ok, manchmal gibt es noch ein paar Hinweise im IRC. Gemäss smolt gibt es 5753 Systeme mit de_DE.UTF-8 und ich denke, dass es da doch den einen oder anderen gibt, der weiss, wie man Bugreport ausfüllt. Aber es ist wohl eher die Bequemlichkeit oder die Unwissenheit der Leute, dass es keine Bugreport gibt.
Die Fedora-Teile in Englisch und Gnome, KDE oder jedes anderen Tool in Deutsch? Falls es so ist, dann sollten wir sofort mit der Lokalisierung innerhalb von Fedora aufhören. Aber es sind wohl alle Lokalisierungen, die im Spiel sind, wenn ich dies richtig verstanden habe.
Wir, respektive ich, GNOME, KDE und jedes lokalisierte Tools, warten ständig auf Bugreport.
Wo arbeiten wir gegen einander? Hast Du ein Beispiel, ausser unserer Konfrontation wegen fedora-web?
Unluckily, language translations don't make it that often into Fedora updates during the lifetime of a Fedora release. So mostly, a broken translation is kept there for the whole release. But it's okay to be only quantitative and not qualitative, our team leader of the German translation project prays.
Dies sollte wohl eher an die Entwickler adressiert werden, denn die Übersetzer haben keinen Einfluss darauf, wann Entwickler die Übersetzungen integrieren oder ob sie überhaupt integriert werden.
Ich habe nie "vorgebetet", die Quantität vor die Qualität zu stellen, sondern dass es ohne Upstream oder wenn jeder sich nur mit seinen Dingen beschäftigt keine Veresserungen gibt.
Für die Zukunft werde ich mir wohl merken müssen, dass im IRC "alles was Sie sagen, wird vor Gericht gegen Sie verwendet" ;-)
Fabian
Hallo Fabian,
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Fabian Affolter wrote:
Robert Scheck schrieb:
Our German translation is only quantitative, not qualitative. And the worse thing is, the team leader of the German translation team finds the current position and its current status okay. That's wrong and never should happen.
Ich kann mich an diese eine IRC-Unterhaltung erinnern, jedoch habe ich keine Logs (die hast Du sicher noch...) und so kann ich den exakten Wortlaut nicht wiedergeben. Habe ich nicht eher gesagt, dass sich am momentanen Stand nur wenig ändern lässt? Oder habe ich dem wirklich zu gestimmt?
du akzeptierst es indirekt: Du sagst, dass du quantitative Übersetzung in Ordnung findest, weil es sicherlich jemanden gibt, der es dann qualitativ neu übersetzen bzw. korrigieren kann. Damit findest du den aktuellen Punkt in Ordnung. Warum muss dann überhaupt jemand erst eine quantitative Übersetzung machen und warum macht derjenige nicht gleich eine qualitative? Das ist etwas, was überhaupt nicht in Ordnung ist und was meines Erachtens niemals passieren sollte.
Sicherlich, man kann nicht alles auf Anhieb richtig übersetzen und es gibt auch Korrekturen, aber nur etwas zu übersetzen, damit es deutsch ist und dabei relativ außen vor lassen wie gut es ist oder ob man es überhaupt dem Sinn nach versteht, ist völliger Quatsch.
If a German person is not able to understand the context of a translated sentence, the phrase should not be commited. Many people are even not re- reading the tsentence whether it has any meaning after the translation. But our team leader says, quantitative translation is okay. Ugly grammar and spelling issues are another thing; seems too much to re-read or to use a spellchecker before commiting - our teamleader says, that everything must fast go to upstream...great!
Qualitätssicherung ist ein Problem, dass habe ich nicht in Abrede gestellt. Du weisst wohl auch, wie gross das Team der aktiven Übersetzer ist.
Und gerade darum ist qualitative Übersetzung für uns viel wichtiger als die aktuell quantiative Übersetzung, die wir betreiben. Lieber langsam und dafür sorgfältig als schnell und hudelig, wie wir es aktuell oftmals doch praktizieren.
Was meines Erachtens auch niemals passieren darf - das richtet sich nicht (!) gegen dich, sondern an alle - dass die zu übersetzende Phrase einfach nach Babelfish kopiert wird und genauso 1:1 wieder in die Übersetzung. Ich weiß leider nicht mehr genau, wo und was das war, aber es war sinngemäß (!) eine Übersetzung im Stil von:
Please execute "yum install bison" in order to make this possible.
Das wurde übersetzt mit:
Bitte führen Sie " yum bringen Wisent" an, um dies zu ermöglichen.
HILFE! Ich habe kein Problem damit, wenn Leute Hilfsmittel wie Babelfish verwenden, jedoch vielmehr, wenn sie das Ergebnis anschließend nicht einmal annähernd verifizieren und gegenlesen. Wehe, es fragt jetzt jemand, was an der obigen Übersetzung falsch ist... ;-) Aufgrund dessen: Qualität statt Quantität!
An das "fast" so in diesem Zusammenhang mit upstream kann ich mich nicht erinnern. Ich habe wohl eher daran gedacht, dass wenn es mal übersetzt ist, resp. in einer Rohfassung vorliegt, die Chance grösser sind, dass es auch in einer kürzeren Zeit einen gewisse Qualität erreicht.
Du vergisst hierbei, dass die "Rohfassung" dennoch in den Programmen und Anwendungen landet und wenn es niemand korrigiert, respektive also niemand die quantitative Übersetzungen in eine qualitative umwandelt, dann landet genau dieser Mist, diese Rohfassung, in einem Fedora-Release.
Entweder wir tragen sicher Sorge dafür, dass die Rohfassungen nicht in ein Fedora-Release bzw. in die Software einfließen, oder wir übersetzen gleich richtig und sorgfältig und nicht nur quantitativ. Da wir ersteres meines Erachtens mit aktuellen technischen Möglichkeiten nicht ohne weiteres realisieren können, stimme ich für eine sorgfältige, also qualitative Übersetzung - wie meine initiale Meinung wohl auch eindeutig bereits wissen hat lassen.
I now know lots of German speaking people (in their mother tongue), which use Fedora only in English - including myself - to avoid the must of reading that horrible German. Surely, we can fix that, but if always people are working against, that does not help.
Wenn es so schlimm ist, wo sind die Bugreport, es müssten ja unglaublich viele sein. In der Zeit von Fedora 9 bis 10 waren es sicher nicht mehr als fünf. Ok, manchmal gibt es noch ein paar Hinweise im IRC. Gemäss smolt gibt es 5753 Systeme mit de_DE.UTF-8 und ich denke, dass es da doch den einen oder anderen gibt, der weiss, wie man Bugreport ausfüllt. Aber es ist wohl eher die Bequemlichkeit oder die Unwissenheit der Leute, dass es keine Bugreport gibt.
Du vergisst, dass es auch Leute gibt, die smolt nicht aktiv haben. Das dürften auch noch viele sein. Sicherlich gibt es Leute, die das wissen, aber ein gebranntes Kind, dass mit der deutschen Übersetzung unzufrieden war, kommt nicht unbedingt wieder zur deutschen Lokalisierung zurück. So kenne ich das auch von Leuten aus meinem Umfeld. Nur gehöre ich scheinbar zu den wenigen, die immer wieder so "dumm" sind und auch das andere immer wieder ausprobieren.
Und natürlich darf man auch nicht bequem sein, wenn man einen Bugreport ausfüllen möchte. Aber mal ganz ehrlich...als normaler Benutzer muss ich viel zu viel angeben und mich durch das System "durchhangeln", wenn ich lediglich eine einzige falsche Übersetzung oder ähnliches melden möchte.
Die Fedora-Teile in Englisch und Gnome, KDE oder jedes anderen Tool in Deutsch? Falls es so ist, dann sollten wir sofort mit der Lokalisierung innerhalb von Fedora aufhören. Aber es sind wohl alle Lokalisierungen, die im Spiel sind, wenn ich dies richtig verstanden habe.
Wir, respektive ich, GNOME, KDE und jedes lokalisierte Tools, warten ständig auf Bugreport.
Das deutsche GNOME-Übersetzerteam hat teilweise sowieso recht seltsame Angewohnheiten etwas zu übersetzen. Ein spontantes Beispiel ist "Default printer", der gerne mit "Vorgabedrucker" übersetzt wird. Aber was bedeutet eigentlich "Default printer"? Es ist der erstmal voreingestellte Drucker. Was hat das mit Vorgabe zu tun? Ich habe ihn als "Standard" voreingestellt. Aber "Standarddrucker" ist für die GNOME-Leute keine Option (AFAIK).
Es sind alle Lokalisierungen im Spiel, jedoch in erster Linie die von Fedora, da wir dort direkten Einfluss haben bzw. nehmen können. An den Wegen wie es andere Teams handhaben, können wir nicht viel drehen.
Wo arbeiten wir gegen einander? Hast Du ein Beispiel, ausser unserer Konfrontation wegen fedora-web?
Wir arbeiten gegeneinander, wenn jemand qualitative Übersetzungen versucht und jemand anderes an quantitativen Übersetzungen lediglich arbeitet.
Unluckily, language translations don't make it that often into Fedora updates during the lifetime of a Fedora release. So mostly, a broken translation is kept there for the whole release. But it's okay to be only quantitative and not qualitative, our team leader of the German translation project prays.
Dies sollte wohl eher an die Entwickler adressiert werden, denn die Übersetzer haben keinen Einfluss darauf, wann Entwickler die Übersetzungen integrieren oder ob sie überhaupt integriert werden.
Das Problem habe ich oben bereits angesprochen. Sobald wir einmal "Mist" respektive die "Rohfassung" in die *.po-Dateien geschrieben haben, besteht das Risiko, dass diese "Rohfassung" auch in einem Fedora-Release landet. Da können auch die Entwickler nicht wirklich etwas dafür, wenn wir quantitativ und nicht qualitativ übersetzen und dies in die *.po-Dateien schreiben.
Ich habe nie "vorgebetet", die Quantität vor die Qualität zu stellen, sondern dass es ohne Upstream oder wenn jeder sich nur mit seinen Dingen beschäftigt keine Veresserungen gibt.
Siehe oben, ich sehe dies anderst ;-) BTW, why QUALITY translations are important: http://www.ogmaciel.com/?p=610
Grüße, Robert
Am Dienstag, den 09.12.2008, 01:25 +0100 schrieb Robert Scheck:
I now know lots of German speaking people (in their mother tongue), which use Fedora only in English - including myself - to avoid the must of reading that horrible German.
I'm using Fedora in German. The situation is not as bad as your mail suggests. F10 seems to be a little worse as F7. I find more mixed language menues, e.g. in the desktop context menue "Search for files", some ugly elements in xmms, and so on. But the very most parts of the distribution are very well translated (at last for desktop usage).
I suppose you are committed to a very hight level of aspiration. But in everyday life the well known 80:20 rule turns up (the last 20% to achieve a zero error product require 80% of the overall resources). So a more pragmatic decision making may be a reasonable choice.
My points above are what Fedora makes sucking for me - or why I am NOT Fedora! At least I'm thinking that.
I suppose, all your points are valid. And from a Fedora point of view they are important. But if you compare Fedora with other distributions (of even OSs), you (or we) are "complaining on a high level". I can taken for granted that most of broken things get fixed in one of the next updates. New elements as NetworkManager need a longer period of time.
I must admit that I'm reading this list for a long time, but never found a way to contribute e.g. to the translation. It is too complicated to fulfill all the requirements, find a "sponsor" and so on. Maybe we should add some kind of "middleware" to make it easier to contribute so we can squeeze out the last 20% of failures.
Peter
Hello Peter,
On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Peter Boy wrote:
I'm using Fedora in German. The situation is not as bad as your mail suggests. F10 seems to be a little worse as F7. I find more mixed language menues, e.g. in the desktop context menue "Search for files", some ugly elements in xmms, and so on. But the very most parts of the distribution are very well translated (at last for desktop usage).
it's not only the software at all, it's also the Fedora specific and related parts where we can act and improve.
I suppose you are committed to a very hight level of aspiration. But in everyday life the well known 80:20 rule turns up (the last 20% to achieve a zero error product require 80% of the overall resources). So a more pragmatic decision making may be a reasonable choice.
Possible, yes. But typos, grammar issues and other spelling problems according to the software translated by Fedora people should be avoided if possible as it is decreasing the professionality and also the visible and shown quality to the users out there. And as we're a leading project in the software world, we should lead at translations, too.
I must admit that I'm reading this list for a long time, but never found a way to contribute e.g. to the translation. It is too complicated to fulfill all the requirements, find a "sponsor" and so on. Maybe we should add some kind of "middleware" to make it easier to contribute so we can squeeze out the last 20% of failures.
That's why a pootle server could be very interesting for us to make the contribution to Fedora Translations much easier. We're at most parts too technically, not only at translation...
Greetings, Robert
trans-de@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Fabian Affolter -
Peter Boy -
Robert Scheck