9:46 a.m.
Hi all,
I was quite upset when FC1 was launched, and the following bug was
allowed to permeate through:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
I know this is a gnome problem, but... It really isn't.
Here is the question I ask: Is there any one focus mode that's any more
important than another? Let's say if sloppy focus were borked, would we
still have allowed for a broken Metacity to be shipped in FC1? I highly
doubt it. As outlined in the above URL, the problem is the focus method
of: Sloppy Focus w/Click to Raise.
I'm sure tons of people used this focus method, but were quite perplexed
when they could no longer simply click anywhere on a window to raise,
and had to actually click on the title bar.
At any rate, This is my wish for FC2, to be able to have the focus mode
fixed. I have not been able to update my wife's desktop from RH9 to FC1,
as she uses this focus mode(so do I) and can't live without it.
Thanks for your time,
Trae
PS. I sent this to this list, as opposed to fedora-devel because it is a
desktop issue, not an internals issue. If someone feels this should be
directed to fedora-devel, let me know.
--
Trae McCombs
http://occy.net/
founder: themes.org || linux.com
7:49 p.m.
On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 10:46, Trae McCombs wrote:
Hi all,
I was quite upset when FC1 was launched, and the following bug was
allowed to permeate through:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
So fix the bug (without introducing a different bug) - I tried, I didn't
have much luck.
Havoc
8:13 a.m.
On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 20:49, Havoc Pennington wrote:
On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 10:46, Trae McCombs wrote:
>
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
>
So fix the bug (without introducing a different bug) - I tried, I didn't
have much luck.
If you didn't already know, I can not code. So telling me to fix the
bug is more than counter-productive. I have contributed to the Free
Software / Open Source community in other ways that I've been able to
though.
That being put aside... My main point was, and is: Should we allow
broken software to permeate into Fedora.
Just because you personally don't use Sloppy Focus with Click to Raise,
doesn't make it any less important.
From a users interface point of view, this is one of the more
intuitive
focus methods. Being forced to click on a title bar, or pressing the
alt key, isn't exactly a very intuitive thing. Clicking anywhere in a
window to raise it, however, is.
I guess I'm still amazed that you would rather break a very useful
feature in order to fix a bug that had been around for quite a while.
Why should a feature be lost at the expense of someone else's bug?
Further notes:
pekwm comes set with this focus mode by default. I don't know how they
have gotten around the "dhtml" bug where getting rid of this focus
method fixes. (or if they did get around it).
*sigh*, I'm sure noone really cares about this, and most people that are
missing this method of focus are probably just simply clicking on the
title bar thinking it's something that could be fixed but that they
can't find how to set the option.
Trae
--
Trae McCombs
http://occy.net/
founder: themes.org || linux.com
8:19 a.m.
Fedora should target a well defined community response system and
bug free releases. Fedora is not RedHat's testing departement, I guess.
Else we should drop the edition.
Greets,
Marky
Trae McCombs wrote:
On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 20:49, Havoc Pennington wrote:
>On Mon, 2003-12-08 at 10:46, Trae McCombs wrote:
>
>
>>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
>>
>>
>>
>So fix the bug (without introducing a different bug) - I tried, I didn't
>have much luck.
>
>
If you didn't already know, I can not code. So telling me to fix the
bug is more than counter-productive. I have contributed to the Free
Software / Open Source community in other ways that I've been able to
though.
That being put aside... My main point was, and is: Should we allow
broken software to permeate into Fedora.
Just because you personally don't use Sloppy Focus with Click to Raise,
doesn't make it any less important.
>From a users interface point of view, this is one of the more intuitive
focus methods. Being forced to click on a title bar, or pressing the
alt key, isn't exactly a very intuitive thing. Clicking anywhere in a
window to raise it, however, is.
I guess I'm still amazed that you would rather break a very useful
feature in order to fix a bug that had been around for quite a while.
Why should a feature be lost at the expense of someone else's bug?
Further notes:
pekwm comes set with this focus mode by default. I don't know how they
have gotten around the "dhtml" bug where getting rid of this focus
method fixes. (or if they did get around it).
*sigh*, I'm sure noone really cares about this, and most people that are
missing this method of focus are probably just simply clicking on the
title bar thinking it's something that could be fixed but that they
can't find how to set the option.
Trae
--
R.Ø.S.A.
Identity: Marky Goldstein
E-Mail: ready(a)rosa.com
Task: CEO, Product & Strategy
R.Ø.S.A. Creation. Technology. Intelligence. AG
Seefeldstrasse 231, 8008 Zurich, Switzerland
Phone: +41 1 389 63 33
Fax: +41 1 389 63 30
URL: http://www.rosa.com/
12:31 p.m.
Trae McCombs wrote:
I was quite upset when FC1 was launched, and the following bug was
allowed to permeate through:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
I have a feeling that you'll *really* like KDE, especially 3.2 when it
comes out. It allows you to configure the focus model, and you can get
pretty much anything. :)
1:06 p.m.
On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 13:31, Rob Park wrote:
Trae McCombs wrote:
> I was quite upset when FC1 was launched, and the following bug was
> allowed to permeate through:
>
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
I have a feeling that you'll *really* like KDE, especially 3.2 when it
comes out. It allows you to configure the focus model, and you can get
pretty much anything. :)
If I weren't so picky, and liked the consistency of things in GNOME on
Fedora, I would use KDE. It allows you to do all the things I want to
do. The biggest problem I have with KDE is that not a single
theme/style/whatever that I've found for KDE has as good a look and feel
as the Bluecurve setup does. Also, KDE has issues when it comes to
panel applets. People like to put way too much chrome on things, and
things end up looking clunky. GNOMEs panel applets feel integrated, and
not an afterthought.
The biggest thing is, I've tried very hard, at my friend Garrett's
suggestion, to use the defaults in Redhat8/9 and now Fedora Core 1.0. I
really like the work he's done, it's sad though that people can
arbitrarily kill off another persons feature without getting feedback
from the community. I guess this is where the whole "If you don't like
what I do go code something else yourself" mentality comes in to play.
IMHO, that shouldn't be the way to run a desktop environment. Before
taking out major features, the community at large should be consulted.
Then, and only then, should things be removed or added.
Trae
--
Trae McCombs
http://occy.net/
founder: themes.org || linux.com
2:19 p.m.
Trae McCombs wrote:
On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 13:31, Rob Park wrote:
>Trae McCombs wrote:
>
>
>>I was quite upset when FC1 was launched, and the following bug was
>>allowed to permeate through:
>>
>>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
>>
>>
>I have a feeling that you'll *really* like KDE, especially 3.2 when it
>comes out. It allows you to configure the focus model, and you can get
>pretty much anything. :)
>
>
If I weren't so picky, and liked the consistency of things in GNOME on
Fedora, I would use KDE. It allows you to do all the things I want to
do. The biggest problem I have with KDE is that not a single
theme/style/whatever that I've found for KDE has as good a look and feel
as the Bluecurve setup does. Also, KDE has issues when it comes to
panel applets. People like to put way too much chrome on things, and
things end up looking clunky. GNOMEs panel applets feel integrated, and
not an afterthought.
The biggest thing is, I've tried very hard, at my friend Garrett's
suggestion, to use the defaults in Redhat8/9 and now Fedora Core 1.0. I
really like the work he's done, it's sad though that people can
arbitrarily kill off another persons feature without getting feedback
from the community. I guess this is where the whole "If you don't like
what I do go code something else yourself" mentality comes in to play.
IMHO, that shouldn't be the way to run a desktop environment. Before
taking out major features, the community at large should be consulted.
Then, and only then, should things be removed or added.
We simply cannot consult everyone nor should we take into account
everyone's opinion. If we did that, the the desktop would contain every
feature available in a clunky interface and would lack consistency. I
don't think that's the right way to go.
(Having input from the community _is_ valuable though; don't take the
above paragraph out of context. *smile*)
That being said, having sloppy focus with a click to raise a window is
something I'd like too, as long as the click is passed through. I get
around it by having autoraise turned on, but it's still annoying at
times, especially in the GIMP (which is the reason why I'm using
autoraise in the first place).
When you interact with a window, you expect it to react. I've closed
the wrong window in the GIMP several times due to focus not being passed
correctly, including various docks which I cannot get back the way I
want without reconfiguring for several minutes. Other times it's a
document I was working on that I would have to reopen. It's highly
annoying, especially since Metacity (at one point in time) did the right
thing.
Garrett
2:30 p.m.
On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 15:19, Garrett LeSage wrote:
>>>
>>>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115072
>>>
We simply cannot consult everyone nor should we take into account
everyone's opinion. If we did that, the the desktop would contain every
feature available in a clunky interface and would lack consistency. I
don't think that's the right way to go.
Fair enough. I do understand this in a lot of cases. I realize what
you guys at Redhat are trying to do is very hard, and if every single
joe blow wanted to put in thier 2 pennies, nothing would get done.
Rob Adams has posted a request to remove the bug fix for now, and
possibly have the X developers fix this. I would concur with his
thinking. Please read the above bugzilla URL for more details.
My whole thinking on this is that, a developer, in a big project like
GNOME, shouldn't be able to fix bugs that cause known and working
features to stop working.
(Having input from the community _is_ valuable though; don't take
the
above paragraph out of context. *smile*)
That being said, having sloppy focus with a click to raise a window is
something I'd like too, as long as the click is passed through. I get
around it by having autoraise turned on, but it's still annoying at
times, especially in the GIMP (which is the reason why I'm using
autoraise in the first place).
When you interact with a window, you expect it to react. I've closed
the wrong window in the GIMP several times due to focus not being passed
correctly, including various docks which I cannot get back the way I
want without reconfiguring for several minutes. Other times it's a
document I was working on that I would have to reopen. It's highly
annoying, especially since Metacity (at one point in time) did the right
thing.
Right bud... Thanks for vocalizing something I in an illustrative way I
could not. It's hard to put these U.I. interaction things into positive
words when it doesn't work the way you want.
Garrett
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Trae McCombs
http://occy.net/
founder: themes.org || linux.com
2:41 p.m.
If I weren't so picky, and liked the consistency of things in
GNOME on
Fedora, I would use KDE. It allows you to do all the things I want to
do. The biggest problem I have with KDE is that not a single
theme/style/whatever that I've found for KDE has as good a look and feel
as the Bluecurve setup does. Also, KDE has issues when it comes to
panel applets. People like to put way too much chrome on things, and
things end up looking clunky. GNOMEs panel applets feel integrated, and
not an afterthought.
What a wonderful statement! I do fully agree on that KDE is too flashy
to be useful. Bluecurve is a wonderful piece of art and usefulness.
Great style and usability. Please, do not make Gnome imitate that techy
style interface where you need to wear shades before you can achieve
anything at all.
Of course, there are things in Gnome that are frustrating, but let's be
optimistic, supportive and helpful about these.
One thing about Gnome that is frustrating is the bad copy/paste or even
drag/drop support. Media integration could be improved. Fonts are still
not as fantastic as they should be. And more things that should be
fixed, but I stop here.
All in all, Gnome is a marvellous environment and would not want to be
forced to use anything else.
Ok, I have to admit that I was shown MacOS X and I was impressed, but
that is probably beyond the scope of this discussion...
Many thanks to Havoc and the people around him. They do a wonderful job.
Let's support them to make Gnome even better.
king regards
André
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8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
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Andre Meyer -
Garrett LeSage -
Havoc Pennington -
Marky Goldstein -
Rob Park -
Trae McCombs